Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I often see a conversation on twitter where
1. women will talk about how men have a responsibility to challenge problematic comments made by male friends, esp when in all-male groups
2. a bunch of men will respond saying that avoid hanging out with the kind of guys who say stuff like that, or avoid hanging out in all-male groups altogether because they find them toxic
3. women will respond saying that this is not helpful/an abrogation of responsibility etc, that men who consider themselves 'allies' or whatever have a duty to engage with these ppl/situations.

idk, befriending ppl you don't enjoy spending time with solely so you can admonish them for their bad behavior seems unlikely to end well for anyone? to actually maintain those friendships imo you would have to pick your battles to a certain extent, let some things slide, be complicit up to a point, and where do you draw the line? but I can see the logic of saying that a guy who avoids this kind of environment to keep himself 'pure' is actually doing less to help than someone who hangs out in groups that are problematic but makes some attempt to push back against that.

^^^ this is what I was thinking about earlier in the context of this thread, I don't have any easy answers but I sure don't want to hang out with assholes just so I can argue with them

i guess w/that i try to lead by example and live a more decent life, ian otm here:

I try, but I'm no paragon of virtue. I think especially when I was younger, late teens/early twenties, I probably said lots of inappropriate or terrible things when hanging out with dudes. But it's important to be work at being better and acknowledge the fact that by making (even ironic) sexist or racy jokes we are perpetuating a bad thing.

^^i mean i went through a period of my life where while i wasn't a terrible person i was certainly not ideal. the only thing you can do is try to change yourself and work on yourself, because if you sense that what you're doing is wrong then you need to reset yourself. it's never too late. i've seen a lot of people i know make a concerted effort to change and have been successful, and i think i count myself among them, or at least i hope so. i've seen others who have never changed and don't seem to want to.

I avoid people who are assholes because I don't have the fortitude or wherewithal to deal with assholes. That said, I don't have an issue calling foul if the generally-decent people I know behave indecently.

"Nomar OTM about reading books by women"

most of my fave writers are women because women writers tend to speak to me more but i am reminded of a recent thing where i was talking to a friend's mother who is a big reader and i told her i had read those elena ferrante books and she kinda looked startled and said "you're the first man i've ever met who has read those!". and i told her "i learned it through the ILB!" okay, i didn't say that. but ILB definitely responsible for me reading them.

whether they want to touch them sexually or not doesn't drive the behavior

lol waht

I don't think it's disputable that misogyny (no matter who it's coming from) takes similar forms and has similar effects but straight male misogyny often comes from a different place than gay male misogyny ime, which was my only point.

I mean do I really need to point out all the trad MRA/sexist crap about how women are only fit to be sexually subservient to men and guys complaining that their continued rejections by women are all rooted in the inherent collective failures of the female gender, feminists etc. that kind of shit comes from a specifically hetero POV.

Thinking about this stuff atm I'm realizing that the most stereotypically-male presence in my life right now is probably the ten-year-old that I tutor. He plays basketball and does karate. He could probably kick my ass, were he so inclined.

xpost 2 skot -- i wanna read those ferrante books! but i think i'm gonna wait until they are $1 at a thrift store or free on the street.

Misogini as expressed by gay men stems from the same kind of revulsion: the purported weakness of women, the way they smell, and, worst, their monopolizing of men.

uh misogyny

misogini (demo version)

gay men think women smell bad??

when was in high school and trying to stay afloat in a sea of toxic masculinity, almost everyone acted like they thought women smelled bad

idk Alfred what is the gay analog to the straight guy that can't establish or maintain a relationship w women and turns that into "it's not me, it's THEM!" standard misognist perspective (honest question!)

itt many mispellings of mesoginey

I have genuinely never heard of this thing about women smelling bad as a thing before. It seems...kind of insane and completely out of sync with reality?

Kind of like misogyny!

that's universal.

x-post

cooties yo c'mon man xps

i mean "it's not me, it's THEM!" is kinda universal. unisex.

Also, "smells like fish" is lazy-joke-about-women #1 and I don't believe anyone who says they've never heard it before.

I loved the Ferrante books but most of my female friends did not get into them at all (except for one, who's a writer).

i mean "it's not me, it's THEM!" is kinda universal. unisex.

I guess... but a gay man doesn't feel crushing sexual frustration if he doesn't have any female relationships, it doesn't seem realistic to me to just overlook that dynamic in straight guys.

xxpost Okay, that I've heard, but like in dumb movies or whatever. I genuinely don't remember kids in school saying stuff like that about girls, though. Not to say that they didn't exist, but I was pretty good at avoiding the CHUDs.

i had a gay roommate in high school (when i got sent away to bad boy's school) and he totally thought the idea of smelly pussies was hilarious/terrifying. i can still see him rolling around on his bed in agony at the idea. his saving grace was a great love for "no parking on the dance floor". his obsession with Clinique products was the only smell i had a problem with.

Sorry to divert the thread, but I think I just stumbled upon the sad endpoint of masculine stupidity.

Look. A man thought toilet seats were for girls only and has spent his entire life taking uncomfortable dumps because he is MANLY pic.twitter.com/n6gN3TvUQ3

— Another Scary Ghost (@stavvers) October 12, 2017

i had a gay roommate in high school (when i got sent away to bad boy's school) and he totally thought the idea of smelly pussies was hilarious/terrifyin

haha yes I *definitely* encountered this. not so much from straight guys that I can recall.

(of course a thread about masculinity promptly devolves into a discussion of what female genitalia smell like lol)

Also, "smells like fish" is lazy-joke-about-women #1 and I don't believe anyone who says they've never heard it before.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:27 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark

agree
even if they claim not to have heard of it, even girls said this in high school
the degree to which the early 90s were saturated in toxic masculinity is what has come back to me the most strongly with this weinstein thing

as distinct from which era?

not distinct, just not the utopia of riot grrl power that the early 90s are characterized as sometimes

No one is overlooking that dynamic in straight guys.

I am saying that the driving behavior, which is common to men across the board, is one that is about controlling women like playthings. Some men want to have sex with their toys. Some want to dress them up. Some want to punch and kick them. It's all coming from a place where the person in question is seen as an object rather than an autonomous being.

I keep going back to Isaac Mizrahi's appearance on the 2006 Golden Globes preshow for E!, where he fondled Scarlett Johannsen's breasts, looked down Teri Hatcher's dress, and kept asking all the women if they were wearing any underwear. I don't think this was driven by sexual desire.

It's possible that recognizing from an early age that one has a constantly-spewing fountain of toxic masculinity for a dad helps one to recognize and avoid those who are similarly skewed. Thankfully.

i must have the male macho asshole look or something because the number of times i've been in situations with strangers or semi-strangers and they start talking inappropriately like i'm good with it is way too high.

then there's m1lo Y, who is another unholy creature entirely. xxp

in re things the Weinstein scandal has reminded me of and general toxic masculinity, it occurred to me that growing up there was a lot of popular media that had the trope of a woman who "slept with someone to get the job/part", and we usually learned this from an envious woman (and that woman was presumably scripted by a man) and it was always presented as though that woman was conniving and unscrupulous, and not as though the man was exploiting a massive power imbalance, and it literally just never fucking occurred to me what was really going on there, it was just this accepted, slightly curious thing to me growing up "Oh, there are women who sleep with men to get jobs". As though women would just want to do that, of their own volition.

and it always worked out great for them in the end!

Also, "smells like fish" is lazy-joke-about-women #1 and I don't believe anyone who says they've never heard it before.

― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP),

I heard it in gay circles when I was younger, never in straight ones.

let's not forget the super attractive woman who invades a successful man's life, seducing him and later trying to ruin his career and also KILL him

Miranda Lambert and Blake Shelton?

my question to you all is: what are you going to do about this? i don't think you need to go around educating random assholes, but if some guy you know makes you feel uncomfortable when he (for example) objectifies the waitress, what are you going to do?

may i recommend shunning. it's about time people stopped inviting assholes to the table regardless of how powerful they are.

I'm an excellent shunner of assholes.

I def shun and will continue to shun.

I'm hoping-not-hoping this comes up in the course of my tutoring/mentoring so that I can hopefully engage in some conversations and healthy redirection in that regard. Which is probably more constructive than the freeze-out I'm more likely to give to adult assholes.

I'm an excellent shunner of assholes.

― the scarest move i ever seen is scary move 4 (Old Lunch),

first sentence of your memoir

ian’s post about not being perfect/an angel in his past really resonates w me because of the whole glass houses thing. trying to be a better ally for me is about shutting the f up and getting out of the way as much as possible when surrounded by friendly/strange company. i have no problem rolling on assholes if i am thrust into a situation that i wouldn’t be in by choice.

I already shun, both socially and professionally. I plan to continue doing so.

but if some guy you know makes you feel uncomfortable when he (for example) objectifies the waitress, what are you going to do?

honestly this scenario is so inconceivable to me, I can't think of anyone I know who would do this. and if it was just some random guy I didn't know but happened to be eating with, my immediate instinct would be "note to self: avoid this person". I guess I could start an argument but that's usually not a good tactic when in public with strangers.

how are y'all defining "objectifies"?

Clavicular announces that he will also be getting laser beard hair removal, saying that having a beard is “cope”😳 pic.twitter.com/znM4GZHs8i

— Pulcy (@Pulcys) June 12, 2026

"Clavicular announces that he will also be getting laser beard hair removal, saying that having a beard is “cope”😳"

clav

claaaaaaaaaaaaaav

look, i refuse to start a clav thread here because there really is not that much to say about him beyond

1. cringe
2. frequently does things that are abusive, criminal, or both

and perhaps 3. the thing i am going to try to say now

"cope"? there is a saying among my people: "i don't think that word means what you think it means".

clav _i_ haven't had any facial hair removal, and i _transitioned_.

sweetie, i know i am not at the top of the list when it comes to "experts on how to be a man", and if you weren't going around hurting all the people you're hurting, i'd let it be.

this is not, like, peak guy shit. this is not peak _anything_. focusing your whole life on looking amazing at all times is something that has been done many, many times before, by people of all genders. at its best, it's a tragedy - one dies at a heartbreakingly young age, looking gorgeous and declaring oneself to be bored of everything. at its worst...

at its worst, hon, that might just be you. i'm not saying that to be a catty queen. my friend, you are badly in need of some straight talk. well, that's a little outside of my field of expertise. you know what's inside my field of expertise, though? cope. the levels of cope i've seen... boy, do i know cope, and girl (non-gendered), you are _it_.

and normally it wouldn't be my business. you know, you got some problems but so do i. i got better things to do than bother with yours. except, well.

like i say. i know cope when i see it, and i know that some people who have exceptional levels of cope... well, when the cope fails them, they wind up in places like my support group. i know, i know, you probs think you're too good for us dolls. god, i'd be shocked as hell if you showed up to my group. but you know who might? one or more of the kids who thinks that you're the apex of masculinity, one of the kids who looks up to you, admires you. it is not unlikely that i'm gonna be stuck cleaning up after some of the mess you're making of "masculinity".

with that in mind, i just want to put it on the record - we're _not_ too good for you, or anyone. and what i don't put up with, what the people i consider my community don't put up with, is the kind of shit you're pulling. we all make mistakes. i don't give a shit about fault or blame or any of that. _responsibility_. that's the rules we play by here. you fuck up, you take your lumps. i know it don't work like that for cis white men, and i know you're white, clav, like i'm white, and i know being not just a Cis Man, but the Cissest Man, that's kind of a core part of your identity.

cis? sure. man? sure. _superlative_? i mean. you're the copest man. i'll give you that.