everybody on ilx complains about reddit

I've always felt a "there but for the grace of god go I" with these guys because I think I struggled with similar emotional problems and put off dating and sex a lot longer than my peers because of it. There's a point, sometime after junior high maybe, when the gender and sexual dynamics of social life starts to change among your peers, and I think different people are ready for that change at different times in their lives. But there can be a sense--if you're not ready to date, still finding your confidence, still trying to unfuck your head from all the gendered nonsense you've been fed your whole life--of being left behind, cast out, etc. If your more confident friends start talking to girls, having girlfriends, while you're still in some kind of oedipal trap, or only able to deal with sexual desire via fantasy, then you're gonna feel like you've been abandoned or forgotten somehow.

The difference was that I went to college and got interested in philosophy (lol) while these guys find a ready-made ideology that not only explains their predicament but explains it according to the unquestioned logic of neoliberal capitalism. The funny part is that they are much more comfortable seeking and finding intimacy with each other, and in this way they can extend that adolescent sojourn they remember right before Everything Changed.

xps idk, I think there are a significant number of guys who will never be able to make themselves as attractive/interesting to other people however much they try. it's weird, because I think that most people would agree that there *are* genuinely,irredeemably unattractive people out there - but then insist that the people posting to these forums are not among them? why would there not be overlap?

the "personality doesn't matter" stuff is interesting to me as well, since it doubles as a way to assert that personality is some deep inner essence of the self (and thus necessarily isolated, as they feel) and not merely a way to interact with other people. it's a logic that actually rejects the possibility of intimacy--which is of course already a difficult and sometimes paradoxical notion.

xp ryan otm

I definitely spent too much time alone, and too much time obsessing over how I _thought_ other people perceived things, when the truth is you just have to talk to people and learn how to socialize instead of finding an echo chamber where you consolidate your unspoken prejudices and put words to them

I think that most people would agree that there *are* genuinely,irredeemably unattractive people out there

because of their attitudes or physical appearances? or are you saying that some people are intrinsically less human?

someone once told me that "whatever you look like, you're someone's type" and while I doubt that's totally true I like to think it is.

I wonder if it adds to the frustration that for adult men that romantic relationships are about it for close social relationships. Communities are gone. Neighborhoods are gone. Groups and organizations to belong to are gone. Close male friendships are gone. Finding purpose at work or career is gone. The stakes are: it's all or nothing.

Everything is gone, except for maybe a couple of things, all revolving around having a romantic partner.

Once again, it's the rich who stole all of this from us, and then blamed everyone for not being "genetically fit" enough to survive in the resulting social and psychological hell scape.

Play it, brimstead.

I wonder if it adds to the frustration that for adult men that romantic relationships are about it for close social relationships.

I think this is most of it!

there's also the weird toxicity of that situation -- I had some good adult male role models as a kid, but even some of them would use the time when they're in an all-male space to vent about the ways of women or w/e. it's that dual-edged thing where romantic intimacy is the only intimacy, and it's seen as something to speak poorly about to other men

add that into the situation where kids are honing their social views in these online cloisters and you have problems

People arguing that looks do matter don't seem to consider that this would work both ways if true

^^^

what do you mean? they're constantly bemoaning how they're too ugly to date.

then maybe they should try dating women they think are too ugly to date

they're lack of social graces + emotional maturity mean that they can't really date anyone - even someone who is more "in their league." they're probably right that if you're very attractive you can make up for shitty personality traits, and they're also right that some shitty behavior can even be perceived as sexy whereas some innocuous behavior (poor social cue receptions) is not. afaict the lacuna is that they don't see how with a change in their behavior/attitude/presentation of self they can probably find long term mates even if they are physically unattractive to most ppl (or they see that but can't figure out how to change). i don't know any incels irl but i know ppl who have hit walls in their life - still living with their parents in their 30s, not dating, not working real jobs (just driving uber or whatever), constantly talking about how they want more but they won't even take their prescription medication. life is really hard for a lot of people!

their*

In regards to romantic relationships being the only close ones dudes have and the frustration felt.

https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood/why-do-we-murder-the-beautiful-friendships-of-boys-3ad722942755

Originally posted in masculinity but think it applies

i mean life is really hard for everyone, but even within that paradigm some ppl just can't launch and can't do the things (like date, or hold a steady job, or move out on their own) that most of us take for granted. and they want those things but they have i guess engrained unhealthy behaviors and probably brain chemistry issues that need to be worked on w/ a professional.

they just need to go into academia, like i did.

i see the celibacy as i guess metonymic. they end up investing all the angst in the fucking/mating but really it's standing in for all the other alienations that they feel (mentioned above their inability to forge other non-romantic tight relationships) and other accomplishments of regular life they're missing. finding a girlfriend (or becoming someone who can find a girlfriend) becomes the panacea for all the things afflicting them.

or the scapegoat on which they hang all their problems

I agree with all that you say Mordy but I think that when a lot of these guys bemoan their undatability they are talking about a subset of women who meet their own standards for attractiveness. The league thing is a horrible metaphor but if you're sincerely looking.for.affection, maybe you need to.look for that quality in.others

Ignore the odd punctuation, my phone is a dick

there’s something to the fact they define their lifestyle in terms of “celibacy”

People arguing that looks do matter don't seem to consider that this would work both ways if true

― pulled pork state of mind (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:22 (thirty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

― mh, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:23 (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what do you mean? they're constantly bemoaning how they're too ugly to date.

― Mordy, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:28 (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Surely the "works both ways" thing here is that if you accept the logic that they're too ugly to date then there's also women who're in the same predicament, and presumably deserving of incel solidarity. The conflict would then be between the uglies and the hot ppl; but it's not, ever, it is entirely about hatred of women for being "superficial".

Also though let's get real here what're the odds that these guys would want someone in their self-defined league and aren't just pining because they wish they could fuck supermodels? xpost with NV

i've read this subreddit now and then out of fascination and horror and wonder how old these people actually are on average. something tells me there might be a fair amount of them in high school

xp I think a lot of them would probably be happy with anyone. The problem isn't that they're too ugly to date really (even tho they might be right that if they were more attractive they'd have an easier time dating) it's that their souls are too ugly to date. It could be some of them /could/ date people in their "league" but are choosing not to bc they're really so entitled they believe they deserve a model - but I suspect that someone who refuses to date anyone because they're holding out for a model have significant problems beyond lack of reasonability about who to pursue ya know?

But also this is a systemic problem
- society definitely makes single people feel like losers through media. But it's their choice to react in such an ugly way

The stock response among the Reddit incels to the idea that they're holding out for exceptionally attractive women is absolute denial. You'll often see them insist that they would take literally any woman who would have them, no matter what she looks like, but not one will.

They also insist that there is no such thing as an incel woman. As evidence, they'll cite various "social experiments" in which a fake online dating profile with photos of a very conventionally unattractive woman gets a torrent of messages from men.

In fact, any expression of loneliness or sexual frustration from a woman is interpreted as that woman lamenting a lack of attention from high-value "chads" while ignoring her many "sub-8" suitors.

i've read this subreddit now and then out of fascination and horror and wonder how old these people actually are on average. something tells me there might be a fair amount of them in high school

Yeah they read to me like either in high school or young adult but trapped in a very small town

many xposts If we can get back to the poor socialization of young men/the alienation of friendless adult men --

I'm glad that I developed interests before the internet became a part of daily life. If I had been playing computer games since age 5 rather than age 12 or whatever, I wonder if I would have ever developed my interests in record collecting, comic books, whatever. Gaming seems to be the most popular activity for a lot of young men, and it seems to be increasingly solitary. Playing games where you kill nameless strangers on the other side of the planet is not at all the same thing as playing Mortal Kombat with your buddies after school. I'm not a parent and I probably never will be, but encouraging young men to have hobbies outside of electronics is probably a step in the right direction. Sports can be terrible but they don't have to be! Read a book! Play magic cards or D&D! Collect something!

I think developing a hobby or hobbies when you're young can help immensely in socializing as an adult. My hobbies have certainly helped me make close friends and socialize with real humans, many of them also adult men. Collecting records is not necessarily a social hobby, but it really can. Learning to engage with people who share your interests is important. It will help you learn to communicate, it will help you learn empathy, it will give you a more nuanced worldview.

Sports and fandom definitely fill this void for some people, but I also (maybe I'm wrong here) think that's a hobby developed early-ish in life for most people? I don't know. SORRY for ramble but I feel like I could have become a crazy incel type guy and I'm glad I didn't.

xp

Specifically, I recall it being a thing circa 12-14 years old for kids to come up with like, diagnoses of why they liked or didn't like some boy or girl in their class; these would be ultra-specific, narrow things. (Obvs the kids would have been looking for a way to express their feelings here, so not necessarily 'buying into' these narrow division points.)

So in my high school anyway if a boy had a very short gelled down haircut, that was 'fit'. Glasses were not fit. If girls wore lip gloss that was fit but regular lipstick was not fit. Dyed blonde hair for girls was fit, curly hair on girls was not fit. And so it went on. I've read that this is pretty standard behaviour for the age group but don't have kids myself so wouldn't know. Anyone?

Eventually the group trundled onward from this point to something a bit more civilised but like, if I either was 12, or had somehow got stuck at the age of 12 socially-mentally, my understanding of what sexual attraction is all about would be ... well pretty much what the incels think it is, reduced to the crudest categories.

ian you're OTM - my good buddy has hibernated playing video games for most of his life, and in conjunction with pot, it has been a big factor in not meeting anyone

Re: the question of why they can't just get with someone 'in their own league'; their interest in supermodels is obviously nuts but otoh, to be fair I can't imagine a relationship based on both being at the bottom of a league table to be much fun for anyone so ...

Playing games where you kill nameless strangers on the other side of the planet is not at all the same thing as playing Mortal Kombat with your buddies after school.

OTM - modern gaming systems almost definitely are a factor here as well as probably smartphones and tablets and social media

I was really into computer games in my early teens, which coincided with my parents moving us a little way outside of town so actually meeting up with friends was trickier. But I always enjoyed getting on irc or other chat things and talking about games, music, whatever a lot more than just playing games. And when I became an adult, I realized I'd talked to some of these people over the course of years and would meet up if I was in their area, or they'd call me for a beer if they were driving through my city.

Obviously I get some sort of social good from posting on ilx or clicking around and responding on twitter but I can't see it in isolation from real life social interaction. It just seems like this broad continuum of social interaction and participating in a community online where it's all young men complaining about how they can't talk to women seems self-defeating. Like, why not join online communities where there are women, and figure out how to keep them diverse instead of driving women out?

then again, we've done a bang-up job of that on ilx :(

MH -- Yes! I was a big ole nerd and on the internet all the time but I also used it for social ends, to find communities where I could talk to likeminded people. I was a teenager when I started posting on ILX, and before that I post on usenet groups about fantasy novels & sonic youth. It's EASY to find people to talk to if you have something in common with them, but focusing your identity on your celibacy is not really the best common interest.

If these people learned to take a sincere, unselfish interest in others they wouldn't be lonely anymore. They would probably end up with romantic affection too after a while. The thing that repulses women

... is not their physical bodies or their lack of success but their neediness and suspiciousness and misogyny

In 99.9% of cases. Some people might be exceptionally strange looking or disfigured but in that case they are in a unique circumstance and need to seek out a specific support community, not a misogynistic hate group.

I do not think the problems represented by these guys and their line of thought will be solved by getting them laid.

even the bronies figured out that friendship is magic

DJP otm. Their minds are poisoned with hatred. They need serious therapy to undo everything about their mindset.

I've always felt a "there but for the grace of god go I" with these guys because I think I struggled with similar emotional problems and put off dating and sex a lot longer than my peers because of it.

I feel like probably everyone has felt like this at some point; the idea that you're undateable/unfuckable makes your situation more tragic and *special* than it would otherwise be and, crucially, it allows you to stop trying.

Though thankfully even as a teen I turned this against some nebulous notion of "the popular kids" rather than women in general.

Yup with ya there DJP.

Some people also always want to be the underdog to a fucked up extent

You'll often see them insist that they would take literally any woman who would have them, no matter what she looks like, but not one will.

to reiterate my point a little clearer, I think they--consciously or not--are trying to avoid being with anyone. And yes you can tragically pine for something and also work actively to make getting that thing impossible. there's an idea in psychology about "embeddedness"--they are comfortable in the the environment they are in, and fear leaping into a new one. it's a natural fear, but a convincing description of depression is an inability to leave one form of embeddedness for another one.

there's something to having room in your interests for things others are into

like for every dipshit complaining about "normies" not liking what's cool, there might be a neighbor or coworker you could befriend by paying just passing attention to some mainstream thing and talking about it instead of defining yourself in opposition to really innocuous things

ryan otm again, though -- there's a base insecurity most people have about social interaction, but until you really interact, it's hard to see that you're not different

I mean, love and dating are painful and involve a great deal of heartbreak and rejection. It's not a crazy thing to want to avoid as long as you make the choice authentically.

Which these people aren't.

80% of successful social interaction involves recognizing that the other person is just as nervous about talking to you and mitigating it for them.

I think what I was trying to get at earlier is that in order to be interested in and care about other people, you have to care about yourself and feel that you're worth caring about.