everybody on ilx complains about reddit

oh god i should've put that parenthetical in quotes, i am not nor have i ever been an incel lol

They think they are entitled to sleep with women/women have to sleep with them.
― ian, Monday, October 9, 2017 7:55 PM (thirty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I actually don't think this is quite right. There are some incel types who believe this, but there are others for whom entitlement to sex with women doesn't seem to be part of their worldview. Unfortunately, these others are not generally any less hateful.

What all the Reddit incels seem to have in common is a view of (straight) women as completely ruled by their insatiable sexual appetite for a narrow category of conventionally attractive, hypermasculine men. Any sexual or romantic attention directed at any other man is seen as being motivated by a desire to extract social or financial resources from that man. The fact that women deny this is seen as evidence that they're dishonest and conniving, or that they're childish in their lack of self-awareness, or both.

What this means, according to incels, is that a small proportion of men (often said to be 20%, for some reason) receive sincere sexual interest from women; another, larger proportion sometimes get to have sex with women who aren't really attracted to them and who have ulterior motives (and who are cheating with higher-status men at every opportunity); and some men are so far from meeting basic standards of socially acceptable attractiveness that no woman will have sex with them at all without being paid first.

Incels see themselves as the members of that last category. They often refer to themselves as genetically inferior, as having lost the "genetic lottery", sometimes even as deformed, and see the whole situation as the inevitable result of evolutionary pressures on human behavior. But they still absolutely hate women for it.

I've been fascinated with these guys for a long time--I used to browse the PUA Hate forums, where Elliot Rodger was an occasional poster. I absolutely do not recommend that anyone else develop this interest.

shit is bleak

they sound traumatized by late stage American free market capitalism.

not surprising a lot of these guys are turning to neo-nazi bullshit. its same value system that warped their minds in the first place, it's just called free market capitalism now.

There's no self-awareness for these guys that its nothing to do with being good looking. some of these assholes are good looking! But the bitter, angry, socially-fucked-up vibes come off this type in WAVES, Ive known a few. It is really, really offputting to be around. I honestly dont think some of em even know they come across that way.

I think part of what makes the incel world so seductive to these guys is that it allows them to see themselves as affirming certain obvious truths that "normies" deny. And "it's got nothing to do with being good-looking" is their central example. Because looks do matter a lot--not as much as they believe, but more than people sometimes want to admit. The halo effect is real. Conventional attractiveness does offer a big advantage in sex and dating. Big enough, in fact, that it can sometimes cover up or compensate for serious deficiencies in character. They love to point out that good-looking male abusers, up to and including serial killers, can be very successful with women. (This allows them to scoff at the idea that women are good at detecting bad personalities.)

In fact, the Reddit incels forum has a bot that scans for uses of the word "personality" and auto-replies with a script about Jeremy Meeks, the former felon who got a modeling contract based on his mug shot and who is now reportedly dating some U.K. heiress. I think the first line is "Women don't really care about personality".

There are some obvious replies to all of this, but they all involve a more complex picture of the world in which there's a lot of individual variation among women, and they have no patience for that.

sounds like a self fulfilling propechy

*prophecy

they sound traumatized by late stage American free market capitalism.

not surprising a lot of these guys are turning to neo-nazi bullshit. its same value system that warped their minds in the first place, it's just called free market capitalism now.

― carpet_kaiser, Monday, October 9, 2017 10:18 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think this is right.

they have dehumanized women by seeing them as consumers looking to maximize their advantages by pursuing sex with "high value" men. they have dehumanized themselves and other men by ranking them within a sexual hierarchy. nowhere in this scheme is there a space for genuine human connection.

i read a book by thich nhat hanh where he defined hell as anywhere where there is a lack of compassion. i think that's what these MRA and alt right forums are. little hells.

these clowns can stay in hell for all i care

sure. but i think they pose a threat to society, stewing like that in their own anger, pulling one another further and further from any sense of solidarity with the rest of humanity.

they have dehumanized women by seeing them as consumers looking to maximize their advantages by pursuing sex with "high value" men. they have dehumanized themselves and other men by ranking them within a sexual hierarchy. nowhere in this scheme is there a space for genuine human connection.

― Treeship, Monday, October 9, 2017 11:14 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think you're right. I also think there's some projection at work here: they imagine that women ruthlessly assess men for their attractiveness and masculinity, and use them accordingly, because that's the gender-flipped version of what they fantasize about being able to do to women.

At the same time, though, a lot of them openly pine after real affection. You'll often see them say that they want this more than they want sex itself--which is why you can see escorts and still be incel ("escortcel" is their term for this).

In fact, it's pretty common to see one of these guys opine that only men are capable of feeling real love. Speaking of gender-flipping: a lot of them end up with the idea that women are all emotionally cold and sexually voracious, while men are the true softies. This sentiment mingles uneasily with the sex slave fantasies and Elliot Rodger memes.

it’s completely average men blaming their inability to socialize or have a relationship on everything other than a lack of self-actualization

I think you're right. I also think there's some projection at work here: they imagine that women ruthlessly assess men for their attractiveness and masculinity, and use them accordingly, because that's the gender-flipped version of what they fantasize about being able to do to women.

^ Very much so imo - it's about noticing cold/cruel/calculating tendencies in self and others and deciding that there is nothing else.

And "it's got nothing to do with being good-looking" is their central example. Because looks do matter a lot--not as much as they believe, but more than people sometimes want to admit.

^ Agree with this and think it needs to be factored in by anyone wanting to really understand or critique these guys.

carpet kaiser's posts read better if you imagine a sultry sax solo playing in the background

Good posts by JRN and treeship. I've known dudes like this and they also seem threatened by a woman's sexuality, or/and they're sexually repressed themselves.

it’s completely average men blaming their inability to socialize or have a relationship on everything other than a lack of self-actualization

― mh, Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:38 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I always see ppl insist this when discussing this stuff, and I don't really see why? my impression is that a lot of them would still be socially/romantically unsuccessful regardless of how much self-actualizing they do.

really? because I mean learning to speak to others as equals without being awkward, learning how to dress in a semi-flattering or at least normal way, and having decent hygiene

not high-minded things like "find your true self" or w/e, just "learn how to function as an average human in society"

like, if someone accepts your invite for a date, don't wear a fedora and scream about your job the entire time

I guess the key point would be to present yourself in a way that other people find interesting. It's not that these guys are necessarily unintelligent or unattractive, just that there's a deep gulf between how others view them and how they view themselves, and "self-actualization" is probably a clumsy way of saying "figure out how to reconcile how others view you with how you view yourself"

you sure know a lot about "these guys"

especially when it comes to how they view and commodify women -- there's a basic level of image management, grooming, socialization that is expected of women but not applied to men, and these guys are amazingly critical of how women present themselves without realizing that they have absolutely no understanding of how others might evaluate them

and their language for describing what they *think* women use to evaluate prospective partners is so bad that they immediately jump to "well I'm not a model and don't have the money for a $2k suit or nice car so women won't like me"

*tips fedora at brimstead*

I've always felt a "there but for the grace of god go I" with these guys because I think I struggled with similar emotional problems and put off dating and sex a lot longer than my peers because of it. There's a point, sometime after junior high maybe, when the gender and sexual dynamics of social life starts to change among your peers, and I think different people are ready for that change at different times in their lives. But there can be a sense--if you're not ready to date, still finding your confidence, still trying to unfuck your head from all the gendered nonsense you've been fed your whole life--of being left behind, cast out, etc. If your more confident friends start talking to girls, having girlfriends, while you're still in some kind of oedipal trap, or only able to deal with sexual desire via fantasy, then you're gonna feel like you've been abandoned or forgotten somehow.

The difference was that I went to college and got interested in philosophy (lol) while these guys find a ready-made ideology that not only explains their predicament but explains it according to the unquestioned logic of neoliberal capitalism. The funny part is that they are much more comfortable seeking and finding intimacy with each other, and in this way they can extend that adolescent sojourn they remember right before Everything Changed.

xps idk, I think there are a significant number of guys who will never be able to make themselves as attractive/interesting to other people however much they try. it's weird, because I think that most people would agree that there *are* genuinely,irredeemably unattractive people out there - but then insist that the people posting to these forums are not among them? why would there not be overlap?

the "personality doesn't matter" stuff is interesting to me as well, since it doubles as a way to assert that personality is some deep inner essence of the self (and thus necessarily isolated, as they feel) and not merely a way to interact with other people. it's a logic that actually rejects the possibility of intimacy--which is of course already a difficult and sometimes paradoxical notion.

xp ryan otm

I definitely spent too much time alone, and too much time obsessing over how I _thought_ other people perceived things, when the truth is you just have to talk to people and learn how to socialize instead of finding an echo chamber where you consolidate your unspoken prejudices and put words to them

I think that most people would agree that there *are* genuinely,irredeemably unattractive people out there

because of their attitudes or physical appearances? or are you saying that some people are intrinsically less human?

someone once told me that "whatever you look like, you're someone's type" and while I doubt that's totally true I like to think it is.

I wonder if it adds to the frustration that for adult men that romantic relationships are about it for close social relationships. Communities are gone. Neighborhoods are gone. Groups and organizations to belong to are gone. Close male friendships are gone. Finding purpose at work or career is gone. The stakes are: it's all or nothing.

Everything is gone, except for maybe a couple of things, all revolving around having a romantic partner.

Once again, it's the rich who stole all of this from us, and then blamed everyone for not being "genetically fit" enough to survive in the resulting social and psychological hell scape.

Play it, brimstead.

I wonder if it adds to the frustration that for adult men that romantic relationships are about it for close social relationships.

I think this is most of it!

there's also the weird toxicity of that situation -- I had some good adult male role models as a kid, but even some of them would use the time when they're in an all-male space to vent about the ways of women or w/e. it's that dual-edged thing where romantic intimacy is the only intimacy, and it's seen as something to speak poorly about to other men

add that into the situation where kids are honing their social views in these online cloisters and you have problems

People arguing that looks do matter don't seem to consider that this would work both ways if true

^^^

what do you mean? they're constantly bemoaning how they're too ugly to date.

then maybe they should try dating women they think are too ugly to date

they're lack of social graces + emotional maturity mean that they can't really date anyone - even someone who is more "in their league." they're probably right that if you're very attractive you can make up for shitty personality traits, and they're also right that some shitty behavior can even be perceived as sexy whereas some innocuous behavior (poor social cue receptions) is not. afaict the lacuna is that they don't see how with a change in their behavior/attitude/presentation of self they can probably find long term mates even if they are physically unattractive to most ppl (or they see that but can't figure out how to change). i don't know any incels irl but i know ppl who have hit walls in their life - still living with their parents in their 30s, not dating, not working real jobs (just driving uber or whatever), constantly talking about how they want more but they won't even take their prescription medication. life is really hard for a lot of people!

their*

In regards to romantic relationships being the only close ones dudes have and the frustration felt.

https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood/why-do-we-murder-the-beautiful-friendships-of-boys-3ad722942755

Originally posted in masculinity but think it applies

i mean life is really hard for everyone, but even within that paradigm some ppl just can't launch and can't do the things (like date, or hold a steady job, or move out on their own) that most of us take for granted. and they want those things but they have i guess engrained unhealthy behaviors and probably brain chemistry issues that need to be worked on w/ a professional.

they just need to go into academia, like i did.

i see the celibacy as i guess metonymic. they end up investing all the angst in the fucking/mating but really it's standing in for all the other alienations that they feel (mentioned above their inability to forge other non-romantic tight relationships) and other accomplishments of regular life they're missing. finding a girlfriend (or becoming someone who can find a girlfriend) becomes the panacea for all the things afflicting them.

or the scapegoat on which they hang all their problems

I agree with all that you say Mordy but I think that when a lot of these guys bemoan their undatability they are talking about a subset of women who meet their own standards for attractiveness. The league thing is a horrible metaphor but if you're sincerely looking.for.affection, maybe you need to.look for that quality in.others

Ignore the odd punctuation, my phone is a dick

there’s something to the fact they define their lifestyle in terms of “celibacy”

People arguing that looks do matter don't seem to consider that this would work both ways if true

― pulled pork state of mind (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:22 (thirty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

― mh, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:23 (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what do you mean? they're constantly bemoaning how they're too ugly to date.

― Mordy, Tuesday, 10 October 2017 16:28 (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Surely the "works both ways" thing here is that if you accept the logic that they're too ugly to date then there's also women who're in the same predicament, and presumably deserving of incel solidarity. The conflict would then be between the uglies and the hot ppl; but it's not, ever, it is entirely about hatred of women for being "superficial".

Also though let's get real here what're the odds that these guys would want someone in their self-defined league and aren't just pining because they wish they could fuck supermodels? xpost with NV

i've read this subreddit now and then out of fascination and horror and wonder how old these people actually are on average. something tells me there might be a fair amount of them in high school

xp I think a lot of them would probably be happy with anyone. The problem isn't that they're too ugly to date really (even tho they might be right that if they were more attractive they'd have an easier time dating) it's that their souls are too ugly to date. It could be some of them /could/ date people in their "league" but are choosing not to bc they're really so entitled they believe they deserve a model - but I suspect that someone who refuses to date anyone because they're holding out for a model have significant problems beyond lack of reasonability about who to pursue ya know?

But also this is a systemic problem
- society definitely makes single people feel like losers through media. But it's their choice to react in such an ugly way