Ta-Nehisi Coates Rules, The Thread

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It's absolutely fascinating the ways Treeship still doesn't get it, but I guess it would be a waste of time to explain it again.

The crux of the argument is that black lives are worth too much to wager on hope in white progress. In all honesty, the bleakness of that is inversely proportionate to the value you ascribe black lives. So it really doesn't have to be bleak at all.

i think you should probably accept that not everyone is going to see eye to eye on every issue

That is of course true, and where both Baldwin and Coates ends up.

Shorter Coates: not everyone sees eye to eye.

...so don't waste your time on convincing white people.

Which I guess since I'm a Danish writer, meaning basically all my readership is white, is a fairly bleak conclusion for me :(

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/17/article-0-1FB9A59400000578-548_634x501.jpg

LOL, Fred you're ok, but I think you are exhausting everyone over minor differences of opinion. By this point we all understand your point of view, and many of us agree with you, but the conversation has stretched well beyond the point of usefulness.

I think this discussion is at an impasse.

― El Tomboto, Sunday, September 17, 2017 11:50 AM (four days ago)

don't waste your time on convincing white people.

This was Malcolm X's basic argument, too.

As I understand it, this position is not the same as giving up on all white people. Those whites who are able and willing to understand will do so and it's fine if they try to persuade other white people. But trying to win over whites isn't an especially productive use of the political or economic energies of American blacks, compared to, say, organizing.

I kind of lost the thread of this argument a while ago but the only thing I really want to say is that I think electoral politics and eradicating white supremacy are very different things and shouldn't be confused. As such, there's a huge difference between what it would have taken to convince some trump supporters not to vote for him -- a fairly small number in a few key states really - vs what it takes to fight white supremacy. And I just hope people don't give up on the former because the latter is so hard, because there's still a lot of good you can do just by making sure Trumps aren't in office and better people are in office, even if that doesn't actually dislodge racist attitudes from people's hearts. I just think they're two different fights, both important but with not necessarily a lot of overlap, and what I find frustrating is the attitude I see a lot that we should just give up on this big subgroup of often former democratic voters out of generalized moral spite. I don't think anyone should do what Lilla suggests and deemphasize "identity politics" or whatever, but I also think it's possible to bring some of those voters in with an economic message that, as it just so happens, could also help turn out more people of color to vote. Like, we already know that there were two-time Obama voters who voted for Trump. That doesn't make those people *not racist*, it just makes them votes that the Democratic party could again win.

don't waste your time on convincing white people.

This was Malcolm X's basic argument, too.

As I understand it, this position is not the same as giving up on all white people. Those whites who are able and willing to understand will do so and it's fine if they try to persuade other white people. But trying to win over whites isn't an especially productive use of the political or economic energies of American blacks, compared to, say, organizing.

― A is for (Aimless), 22. september 2017 05:19 (nine hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's probably has a lot to do with me being white, but for me some of the most wrenching parts of The Fire Next Time is when Baldwin wrestles with this. That he doesn't want to hate white people, don't want anyone to hate white people, want to get rid of segregation, but for example when he goes to visit Elijah Muhammad realizes he basically can't find any evidence against anything they say.

Wait you're not even black danish

It's probably has a lot to do with me being white, but

New board description

Wait you're not even black danish

― passé aggresif (darraghmac), Friday, September 22, 2017 6:45 AM (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao

I kind of lost the thread of this argument a while ago but the only thing I really want to say is that I think electoral politics and eradicating white supremacy are very different things and shouldn't be confused. As such, there's a huge difference between what it would have taken to convince some trump supporters not to vote for him -- a fairly small number in a few key states really - vs what it takes to fight white supremacy. And I just hope people don't give up on the former because the latter is so hard, because there's still a lot of good you can do just by making sure Trumps aren't in office and better people are in office, even if that doesn't actually dislodge racist attitudes from people's hearts. I just think they're two different fights, both important but with not necessarily a lot of overlap, and what I find frustrating is the attitude I see a lot that we should just give up on this big subgroup of often former democratic voters out of generalized moral spite. I don't think anyone should do what Lilla suggests and deemphasize "identity politics" or whatever, but I also think it's possible to bring some of those voters in with an economic message that, as it just so happens, could also help turn out more people of color to vote. Like, we already know that there were two-time Obama voters who voted for Trump. That doesn't make those people *not racist*, it just makes them votes that the Democratic party could again win.

― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, September 21, 2017 10:47 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Zzz

too cool to win, too woke for votes

Too dumb to argue with

You'd think that it was the left who was stoking people's racial resentments in this football bullshit the way you talk. Or that the responsible thing to do would be to find some middle ground not to alienate ppl, to compromise and say "well we should respect the flag..." sure sometimes people are trying to be cool (?!?!?!) by being against racism but most of the time I'm going to go ahead and say it's the only moral choice available so you're not a complete shithead but focus on "electoral politics" and act like trump isn't just playing people like you.

As such, there's a huge difference between what it would have taken to convince some trump supporters not to vote for him -- a fairly small number in a few key states really - vs what it takes to fight white supremacy.

These aren't different fights, they're all interrelated and overlapping, especially when the candidate you're righting against is making *explicit racist appeals.*

I'm really glad my old thread has become an asshole test that everyone failed

Some recent posters have rather excelled tbh

come on. he's making an insanely shallow argument.

And your deep response was "zzz" iirc

exhibit a: why ilx can’t have nice things

And your deep response was "zzz" iirc

― El Tomboto, Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:54 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

because of how absurd even taking it seriously would be, although i gave in a few hours later

god damn look at all the 'BOTH sides are wrong' grown ups in the room

I think this discussion is at an impasse.

― El Tomboto, Sunday, September 17, 2017 11:50 AM (four days ago)

― El Tomboto, Thursday, September 21, 2017 5:18 PM (three days ago)

and yeah, you should look at the fucking grown ups in the room.

Nah

I mean, I would have continued to ignore the thing man alive wrote, which really was incredibly shallow and had nothing to do with Coates. But nobody needs you to come in here and act like a voice of reason, Tombot.

I'm not even pretending to be the voice of fucking reason, I'm just pointing out that being a dismissive, condescending asshole is a bad look. But of course you'd disagree with that on principle, being Copenhagen's own William Lloyd Garrison and all

Death on ye all

Cept tombot ur ok tombot

being Copenhagen's own William Lloyd Garrison

https://i.imgflip.com/br9m1.jpg

Nobody needs you to point anything out, Tombot. Your last ten posts over the last few days never mention Coates or has anything to do with anything but your frustration at other posters. Just walk away, let the thing die out.

Hey, once I'm done with this article on Coates and Baldwin, I might do the same thing?

god damn look at all the 'BOTH sides are wrong' grown ups in the room

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Sunday, September 24, 2017 4:56 PM (forty minutes ago)

your ability to recognize patterns and express yourself in cliche is honestly very good

We can't all see the world with through those amazing nuance tinted glasses kev

nuance scented farts

The Republican party is an active scourge, kneecapping our democratic institutions and regulatory agencies in ways that make it harder and harder to address ANY kind of problem. They are also the party of racism and white supremacy, so the people who are most hurt by their terroristic, shock doctrine type policies are minorities. Promising to hurt minorities and uphold white supremacy was the very essence of Trump's campaign.

Driving these people out of office is an urgent priority. It has to happen if we are going to make any progress on the bigger questions, like starting to heal our nation's racial past. Like, criminal justice reform, for instance, will not happen while Republicans are in office. Trump is pushing policies that directly counter the things BLM is advocating.

Recognizing the urgency of beating Republicans, cautioning against letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, that is all man alive was sayig, as I understood him. I don't see how that is something to scoff at to be perfectly honest.

The Democrats are loathsome in their way but the Republican Party is sooooo bad. Their domination of most state governments and the federal government is a massive impediment to progress of any kind. A message that could peel support away from them -- one that does not compromise democrats' core values obviously -- should be welcomed.

Right, but I get the impression the clause in the middle there is less than obvious - or that folk are concerned that some democrats are taking the long view of what their core values have been.

Dear God, Treeship, will you please just fuck off? You're repeating yourself, it has nothing to do with Coates, and nobody gives a shit. Post that drivel into a Trump-thread.

Lol

Treezy <3 you shakin all the right treez kiu

Fred it generally doesn't end well when you start into a rage spiral like this and make it personal and I'm being friendly here mayne

― passé aggresif (darraghmac), 19. september 2017 19:52 (six days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sad lol. You're such a disingenuous piece of shit, and your concern trolling is your least likable mode.

What is so hard to understand? This is the thread for Ta-Nehisi Coates, so take all that obvious stuff about 'economic messages', which everyone here has heard a billion times, and clutter up all the threads where it would make sense to discuss it.

Man Alive just had the most honest version with: "I kind of lost the thread of this argument a while ago but..." And then no attempt to pick up the thread of the argument, try and understand what anyone was saying. Just the same talking points. It's so dismissive, and it becomes infuriating after a while. Just... Fuck off and read Between the World and Me. And that goes for everyone.

hey fred if you like TNC so much.......then maybe you should marry him!