Ta-Nehisi Coates Rules, The Thread

Home from a morning viewing of I Am Not Your Negro, a bit disappointed, as almost all the power comes from Baldwins words, but nevertheless a strong experience. This clip from the Dick Cavett show made me think of this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGyInxfXNQ
This is the evidence. You want me to make an act of faith, risking myself, my life, my woman, my existence, my children, on some idealism which you assure me exist in America, which I have never seen. Like when Paul Street's comeback against the notion that class unity failed against racism in 2016 is the notion that class unity didn't get the chance. But of course there is people fighting for class unity in America, as long as there's just a single true leftist - and Street of course insists there's a lot - there's a power of class unity, which clearly didn't keep out Trump. Street is just saying that it was something else than racism, that this evidence of the weakness of class unity isn't good enough, that class unity could be strong enough to withstand it, and asks, no demands, that Coates believe in that, without having to offer any evidence in return. And of course that only works due to the power of whiteness, because much of the public a priori believes that white people are too good for Coates to be right. But more bluntly, the argument to Coates and Baldwin is that their lifes don't matter enough, aren't precious, powerful, warm, beautiful enough, to be worth it having to give up this idealism, this Dream, that white people at the end of the day are fundamentally good enough.

And Treeship, you can rail as much as you want against 'extraordinarily uncharitable interpretations', but the fact of the matter is that writers like Coates and Baldwin very explicitly include their black bodies in their writing, they are part of the deal, their existence, safety and happiness, is part of the argument, and when you ask us to be 'charitable' to critics, or when Packer says Coates should 'stop thinking he can see into my soul', or when kevin says Coates should write with more 'humility', you are saying that that is more important than the safety and happiness of black people. And you need a real good reason to do that, you need evidence, you need really strong arguments. YOU need humility and carefulness, much more than the least lip service you can get away with ('But I agree with a lot!'). If you don't have that, nobody should be charitable.

And it's not enough, as kevin did, to claim to be a man of reason, of 'truth and evidence' and that therefore you - even inadvertently - dismiss the visceral and emotional power Coates and Baldwin depends on. It's of no use in this argument. Yes, if you summon that 'truth and evidence' in the support of a convincing counterargument, then we might be talking. Until then, you're just offering more idealism, a Dream that 'truth and evidence' does more good for black bodies than specific concern for black bodies. Show the evidence that class unity might help more than it did in the fourties, that it won't be undermined by the power of whiteness, that the new social programs of the new left won't be compromised in the effort to pass them, that metaphorical red lines won't be drawn to ensure black people will be left out as much as possible. Where's the evidence in any state in the US, any city even, that this won't happen? Which part of the social fabric isn't plagued by either redlining or white flight?

I'm actually going to use this Block Poster feature on Zing for the first time ever.

It doesn't work as well as I hoped.

FP'ing deej for encouraging freb

Show the evidence that class unity might help more than it did in the fourties, that it won't be undermined by the power of whiteness, that the new social programs of the new left won't be compromised in the effort to pass them, that metaphorical red lines won't be drawn to ensure black people will be left out as much as possible. Where's the evidence in any state in the US, any city even, that this won't happen? Which part of the social fabric isn't plagued by either redlining or white flight?

― Frederik B, Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:37 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

who ever said these weren't concerns?

also, k3v wasn't even really making an argument for increased "class unity" that transcends race. he simply objected to the way coates elided certain distinctions among trump's voters in order to bolster his argument. the reason k3vin said he objected to this is because he thinks it is important for people to have as complete a picture of what happened in 2016 as possible. this is also what packer said. it has nothing to do with making excuses for the "white working class" or romanticizing them or saying their hand was forced in voting for trump or ANYTHING.

i still agree with coates that people need to remember that it was a broad coalition of white people from all income and education levels that elected trump, and not jus this caricature of "middle americans." so i agree with his thesis but, as k3v pointed out, he misrepresents the data and then he implies that the writers who wrestled with the parts of the data he wanted to ignore were doing so to avoid the question of "whiteness," which is true in some of the cases -- lilla -- but not in others -- packer.

i find it extremely condescending to coates that you would put him on this sort of pedestal. his writing is good, it can withstand scrutiny. also, speaking of uncharitable, it is simply not the case that any objection to any part of his writing constitutes an attempt to discredit his entire body of work, or the issues he has brought to national attention over the past several years. that is not what k3vin was doing.

I didn't say kevin dismissed his 'body of work', I said he dismissed his black body. Even when you want to describe how uncharitable I am being, you elide the actual harsh accusation I am making.

And of course, you don't bother making a counterargument. You just say 'it is simply not the case' and therefore implicitly demand that I put more power in your words, than in the argument I derived from Coates and Baldwin. Don't you find that dismissive?

OK I take it back the Block Poster feature fucking rules

Can it delete the memory of Fred going on about warm beautiful bodies from my brain tho?

It might help if you take those words away from me and give them to Coates, who I was paraphrasing:

"But you cannot arrange your life around them and the small chance of the Dreamers coming into consciousness. Our moment is too brief. Our bodies are too precious. And you are here now, and you must live - and there is so much to live for, not just in someone else's country, but in your own home. The warmth of dark energies that drew me to The Mecca, that drew out Prince Jones, the warmth of our particular world, is beautiful, no matter how brief and breakable."

It's kinda hard to avoid talking about beautiful black bodies when talking about Coates and Baldwin, though, as it's essential to their argument. This is from the final paragraph of The Fire Next Time:

“When I was very young, and was dealing with my buddies in those wine- and urine-stained hallways, something in me wondered, What will happen to all that beauty? For black people, though I am aware that some of us, black and white, do not know it yet, are very beautiful.”

It is not that hard.

Both Baldwin and Coates insists on specifying racism and the power of whiteness, relating it to corporality instead of keeping it as an abstraction. But yeah, I can keep it in the quotes.

yes you sure can

http://i.imgur.com/zOi9gJH.jpg

"Excuse me, but 'black bodies'? Isn't this just a buzzword that dumb white people use to sound woke?"

im confused about why everyone hates fred so much?? i mean i busted his balls once about the springsteen thing but itt at any rate it seems like he's being pretty reasonable

if you want to look towards an anti racist class movement what you're essentially talking about is the *leadership* of black people within that movement, but most white marxists dont seem ready to give up their concerns to follow the predominant black intellectual tradition. And while I do think there's a lot of truth to the notion of 'neoliberals' using identity politics to their own advantage, i have trouble envisioning a scenario where the most popular & established black intellectuals don't end up maligned as 'neoliberals' or 'liberals' for not following the lead of *white* marxists who've decided they're the ones who have set the priorities in this conversation

I'm actually going to use this Block Poster feature on Zing for the first time ever.

― El Tomboto, Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:50 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It doesn't work as well as I hoped.

― El Tomboto, Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:50 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

FP'ing deej for encouraging freb

― El Tomboto, Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:52 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like, what above these posts was so objectionable?

dude, i have trouble envisioning a scenario where the most popular and established intellectuals don't end up maligned as libs, because you end up established by writing for establishment publications. Also, who defines the 'predominant black intellectual tradition', and in any event how is it opposed to Marxist analysis?

1. yes, success means anyone who attains some level of platform will end up being maligned that way. that doesn't mean that the dynamic i'm describing doesn't exist

2. 'who defines the predominant black intellectual tradition' -- how does anyone define any group of intellectuals/activists/writers? of course its always going to be contentious, but there are lots of popular black writers with many differing worldviews. the only one who seems to get cited by white marxists is RL Stephens at least in these conversations so maybe that says something.

3. it's not opposed to marxist analysis *per se* although some of it very much is.

By and large I'm not interested in defining or delimiting the limits of the 'black intellectual tradition' myself but denying it or suggesting it has some kind of leadership in the marxist world we're describing feels like a pretty obviously phony argument

*leadership role

there's a pretty rich vein of black and POC Marxism both currently and historically from Fanon to the Panthers and many more. POC leftists spend a ton of their twitter energy complaining of liberal erasure.

(and rightfully so, that sounded dismissive on its own)

yes most definitely. i see less quoting of fanon in these conversations than RL though

Also I don't know that its fair to call Fanon a committed marxist exactly, he built on / adjusted those ideas

RL was on a DSA national slate and is v well connected in twitter+left media circles which leads him to be v well represented but there are tons more kicking around.

my point is that there are black leaders of black constituencies whom white leaders are not apt to let into leadership situations, including amongst marxist communities, would you deny that this is true

honestly it's not even clear to me that contemporary Marxism has agreed upon 'leaders' per se so I don't really know how to begin to broach that question

it's certainly no secret that american left orgs have diversity issues generally

for a minor example, check out this thread.

was this an intentional self-own of yourself 7 days ago?

I love both TNC and CTH, but the part where R.L. Stephens talk about how "black bodies" has become a pseudo-intellectual buzzword was OTM

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:38 AM (one week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://i.imgur.com/zOi9gJH.jpg

"Excuse me, but 'black bodies'? Isn't this just a buzzword that dumb white people use to sound woke?"

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Wednesday, September 20, 2017 10:51 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Those posts make the same point, just the latter is intended as a zing on Fredrick B

It's almost as if people are referencing the same book? Next up, have you noticed how people keep saying 'single payer', what's that all about?

(I'm not entirely sure we have the same interpretation of that character from the Simpsons, though)

xp but... nevermind

'body' or 'bodies' is used 10 times in the first 5 pages of Between the World and Me.

Yes, what could possibly be the difference between TNC saying it and Fredrick B saying it

Ilx's response to fred is derision while its response to Coates is more

Ta-nehisi Coates: *breathes blackly*
white liberal public intellectual: "here is my rebuttal to Coates' eloquent yet misguided breathing"

— 🏅Yung Aegon🇳🇬 (@israelizreal) September 20, 2017

Everyone on ilx criticizes everything. That's what this website is for. It was created by and for critics.

Criticism is engagement and the opposite of dismissal.

You yourself are a professional critic.

In this case I think Fred made some good points, using poorly chosen words, about how Coates's writing tries to describe how lived experience -- the experience of racism and betrayal -- makes it hard to trust any kind of political metanarrative, especially hopeful ones. And maybe the breathless analysis of Trump's voters is rooted in a kind of hope Coates doesn't buy into because it implicitly suggests that there is a way to change these reactionary white voters and history doesn't bear that out. I think that's a powerful argument, if bleak. I don't think anyone was even really dismissing this, the crux of Coates's piece, they were grappling with it. It was a provocative article and it provoked people.

If you aren't black, best you can do is take his word on black experience. Even those South Park fucks figured that one out. Aren't you all smarter than those South Park guys?

Say you're a white nerd from the upper middle class, how would you expect, say, a braindead working class sentient garbage pile to understand you? There's a puzzler for you.

omg Block Poster so good

The truth hurts, baby

I love it, I always wanted to be one of those THE_TRUTH poster dudes

we need to lower the FP threshold on the count of less people posting to ilx so we can ban tweedledee & tweedledum more often

All you'll have left are a bunch of creepy sociopaths, then

Oh yeah, I was specifically calling out flopson here on that one