Democratic (Party) Direction

ah, Florida

wtf @ this. clinton visited flint twice and spent more time talking about the issue than any of the other candidates:

did she? that link you posted said she went once two days before the New Hampshire primary:

The timing of the trip is remarkable, just two days before the New Hampshire primary election. But it’s also part of an explosion of attention from the former secretary of state and first lady.

i've been looking for anything past that one photo op. did she go when she was the de facto candidate? all i found was she sent her daughter there.

So she visited the same number of times as Sanders, who as far as I can tell visited once, two weeks before the Michigan primary, which he won. (Although he lost Flint 65-34 to Clinton, lol)

https://theoutline.com/post/2056/the-real-fascists-are-the-friends-we-made-along-the-way

this is worth reading, though I think it conflates at least some of the outrage about Trump with the garden-variety terribleness of the GOP and the fact that a lot of the same awful shit would be getting pumped out even if a more "respectable" Republican was in the Oval Office. I think the Left has a very valid grievance in that the playing field within the party is not level and neolibs/centrist Dems who run for higher office are inevitably going to get signal-boosted by their corporate benefactors and the MSM, but it doesn't change the fact that when the dust settles and you have a nominated candidate, refusing to vote for that person out of principle is still going to give us something bad, and not just Trump, but the assholes in Congress who came within a hair's breadth of completely torpedoing our healthcare system.

also this piece was written by a white dude, natch.

DEMOCRATS SIMPLY CAN'T RESIST CANNIBALIZING THEMSELVES.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a56823/democrats-fighting/

I swear to god, if you invited 20 Democratic and/or liberal partisans to a four-star, five-course meal at the finest restaurant in all Provence, at least eight of them would get up, cross the room, and start fighting over who gets to eat out of the dog's bowl.

haha

ouch

https://wonkette.com/621199/sure-guys-it-is-awesome-that-we-are-shitting-on-kamala-harris

Well said

the shakesville piece linked at the end is a decent read as well

http://www.shakesville.com/2017/08/sanders-democrats-dont-own-left.html

The comments are a joy.

Xpost

Why you gotta call us racist? you are asking now. I KNOW THIS ONE! Because nobody’s putting out memes about Corrupt Ol’ Joe Biden, who just like Kamala Harris is also talking to donors, and that dude, whom we love because NOBODY IS PERFECT ON EVERY ISSUE and he’s mostly a genuinely swell guy, used to be the Senator From MBNA.

Biden may be talking to donors, but does anyone actually think he has a credible shot at being the Dem candidate in 2020? also, who exactly are these Bernie-leftists who love Biden?

why u can't bend the knee, libs

I find it depressing that libs' imagination of what The Left is begins and ends at Bernie

And the notion that the left is uncritical of Biden (or Cuomo or Ossoff or...) is ridiculous. Harris is being floated now so she gets extra scrutiny now. Hopefully she comes out stronger.

Something about the way this rift is expressing itself on my Twitter feed as class revolution versus identity politics is faintly nauseating. I feel represented by neither side, although that's likely because it's kneejerk Twitter and I'm kind of bourgie (admitted!) I do feel like some of the lefty critiques of Patrick don't acknowledge the racial wealth gap and how that creates incentive to build wealth for successful black individuals. It feels weird for white people to critique it when they're not in the same position (and their kids and grandkids won't be.) Admittedly, our justice system is fucked up enough that having served as a prosecutor compromises almost anyone, but it seems weird to single Harris out for that, when she's been such a reliable actor in the Senate. The way this debate is characterized as left v. center also makes me itch because attending to the history of race or gender in addition to class conflict doesn't strike me as necessarily centrist. I end up feeling like I agree with almost no one.

Oh nvm I read upthread and DJP has obviated my presence by articulating my discomfort much better than I just did.

nah

I was talking to my husband about my...set of anxieties about the conflict within the party, and he seemed convinced that the critiques of Booker, Patrick and Harris were prompted by concern that white working class voters wouldn't vote for them. He hasn't read Cooper's piece, but that just seems indicative of the state of things to me.

I'm just long past thinking that any critiques of potential Dem party leaders that come from the "bernie bro" / larry appleton peanut gallery are based on anything that resembles good faith, even of the "I'm worried WV might not go for it" variety

He's coming from a place of extreme cynicism. I think the hot takes about how the Democratic Party needs to stop talking so much about identity politics immediately after the election haunt him.

Which criticisms from the left have said anything about the 'white working class'?

Painting the left as backdoor throwbacks makes zero sense to me, given that Bernie voters were more progressive on every social and social justice issue than Hillary voters.

That Wonkette thing is a bunch of strawman garbage.

I know we’re not all braiding each other’s hair by the campfire, and we definitely shouldn’t. First we should ax Nancy Pelosi, because we’ve all seen that being able to whip votes is totally unimportant in a leader, and she is not “new blood” and also she is to blame for losing the House when all the statehouses gerrymandered their shit to hell and back. Those who criticize her and/or want to replace her all run to her right — no really, look it up! Tim Ryan of Ohio, whose name always comes up as the anointed Pelosi replacement, is ranked as the 122th most progressive member of the House. Kathleen Rice of New York, who went after her during the most recent wave of Pelosi-bashing, is ranked 166th. Pelosi? Just sitting there being a corporate sell-out at #26. But since when do purity tests matter?

So which of the people who are primarily critical of Pelosi for not being left enough and openly dismissing single payer are at frothing at the mouth for Ryan and Rice?

As a Bernie voter who became a Hillary voter in the general, I don't understand what the distinction is other than that I'm some kind of sellout for not staying home?

the vast majority of Bernie voters were also Hillary voters iirc

more Bernie voters became Hillary voters than Hillary voters became Obama voters, IIRC

re: Patrick, which critiques or questions focus on the fact that he has a business career rather than where he's worked? Is there no room for the idea that no one should be given a free pass for being an executive with Bain Capital, an entity which actively hurts more peoples' lives than it helps?

xpost If that stat is true, I don't know that we can ignore how much more significant the divide was in terms of effecting messaging in 2016 than in 08. If you were on social media during the election it's unlikely to see how it could have possibly be disconnected from depressed turnout. The "rigged" primary narrative was toxic unlike anything I've ever seen. Did HRC voters boo Obama's convention? I remember the first day of the DNC is when I told someone I thought Trump was going to win, though later on I put trust in the polling.

Like know of a few people who may have begrudgingly voted for HRC but complained incessantly about her throughout the general. The effects of the latter are hard to gauge but can't be discounted.

Thanks for the Shakesville link, TOMBOT; I commented on it a bit here. I'm a gay Hispanic guy yet I've underestimated the degree to which electing a black man named Barack Hussein Obama was a revolutionary act enough to satisfy huge swathes of the American public. It's given me pause.

No, milo, my husband just doesn't believe the stated critiques. He imagines the true motivation is essentially about courting white votes. I cite his view not because I agree with it, it just suggests to me the unfortunate distrust within the left.

re: Patrick, which critiques or questions focus on the fact that he has a business career rather than where he's worked? Is there no room for the idea that no one should be given a free pass for being an executive with Bain Capital, an entity which actively hurts more peoples' lives than it helps?

I mean, of course there is. In critiques I've read that's precisely what people are suspicious about. I was only saying that when white folks criticize black folks for cashing in, it feels...like an incomplete or slightly hooded critique without acknowledging the systemic theft from black people the country's built on. I'm not saying leftists can't criticize Patrick for working for a corporation, just that it seems decontextualized to me the way it's been presented. Tbf I know very little about Patrick's political record; maybe his ties to Bain led to questionable policy decisions, but I haven't seen evidence of that.

i've been looking for anything past that one photo op. did she go when she was the de facto candidate? all i found was she sent her daughter there.

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, August 4, 2017 2:38 PM (three days ago)

i was responding to "clinton didn't even visit," not "clinton didn't visit when she was the de facto candidate." (whatever that means.) i have no idea what you think clinton should have done beside visit (twice, if you count the debate the democrats held in flint) and talk about the issue more than any of the other candidates, or how this amounts to clinton "giving corporations a free ride."

all criticisms of Dem leaders are bad faith, duh

The Good Establishment has spoken

look, I understand how my comments can tend in that direction. nobody's above criticism and the role of money in American politics is poisonous. I just feel unmoored in the current climate...not sure how to feel about the critiques...not sure how to feel about the counter-critiques.

Morbs must be sad that this thread has evolved beyond him posting links

i prefer experts to endless repetitive unoriginal HAHAHA batshittery

If you were on social media during the election it's unlikely to see how it could have possibly be disconnected from depressed turnout.

This is just as likely to be a symptom rather than the cause - social media was full of vocal criticism of Clinton because she as a candidate and a campaigner turned a lot of people off.

And won the popular vote anyway! A miracle.

apparently there are millions of sane people not on social media

and some who devise Richard Condon-style fantasies about The Intercept.

No, milo, my husband just doesn't believe the stated critiques. He imagines the true motivation is essentially about courting white votes. I cite his view not because I agree with it, it just suggests to me the unfortunate distrust within the left.

I wouldn't call that distrust within the left, that's distrust of the left - and something that can't be countered. It's an unfortunate narrative, we even see how it's spread here, because it leaves the left unable to defend itself - no matter how much evidence there is that left voters are more progressive on everything identity politics is actually about, you get accused of arguing in bad faith or that the only reason a centrist is getting criticized is racism/etc.. The people who rend their garments over the WWC aren't going to DSA meetings, they're asshole blue dogs like Jim Webb.

It's poor messaging on the left's part, too - when someone talks about broadening the appeal, it's really about the belief on the left that doing so means getting the 40% of Alabama that doesn't bother to vote. You can argue about whether that 40% is going to break the way they want via appeals to social democracy, but more non-voters are in fundamentally Democratic constituencies than Republican.

The popular vote and $2 will get you a 20oz Coke.

And won the popular vote anyway! A miracle.

― El Tomboto, Sunday, August 6, 2017 9:09 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wow she must be really popular!

The anxiety from the center/Dem establishment, is that if a moderate candidate gets nominated (which is a real possibility), that not enough voters from the left will show up and Trump or some other horrible republican will win. I think there are plenty of moderate Dems who would be completely fine if a Sanders or similar candidate won, and they'd line up to vote for him, just like moderate republicans were happy to vote for Trump. Sadly, the opposite seems less likely.

I dunno, seems more like the center/Dem establishment still haven't figured out that there are no good Republicans and still harbor some suspicion that they can build a winning strategy out of finally locating those "two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia."

The stance is in place that any criticism or rebellion ala 2016 is basically treason and that if you don't want second-term Trump you'd better vote for whomever you're told to.

"This is just as likely to be a symptom rather than the cause - social media was full of vocal criticism of Clinton because she as a candidate and a campaigner turned a lot of people off."

I'd like to think the next candidate will be more likeable and less susceptible to misleading narratives I depressingly saw non-right wingers spread ("Hillary laughs at rape victim", false narratives that contextless emails can be easily framed perpetuate) but seeing the way people are still
effectively cynically played to wrt click bait-y stories about Democrats every week indicates something deeper is going on with how information is consumed.

People on the left with large followings like David Sirota telling his followers that Democrats were wrong to not vote for GOP's fake single payer amendment ploy a couple weeks ago can conjure up all of this misinformed outrage despite the fact that Bernie gave a speech about why the GOP amendment was a sham.

I do agree the left is providing a very overdue counter to the annoyingly persistent illusion of "honorable republicans". Although it's interesting that this manifested itself in anger at Dems for applauding McCain's return to the Senate when there's a not entirely unlikely possibility his "no" vote could very well have been a consequence of his vanity being played to somewhat and forms of "civility" pragmatic politics they harshly criticize.

milo, you yourself is part of the problem when you say stuff like:

re: Patrick, which critiques or questions focus on the fact that he has a business career rather than where he's worked? Is there no room for the idea that no one should be given a free pass for being an executive with Bain Capital, an entity which actively hurts more peoples' lives than it helps?

― louie mensch (milo z), 7. august 2017 03:07 (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The answer to that is no. There should be no room for such a critique without an intersectional understanding of the way race and gender impact who wants and gets those jobs. Class and race and gender is intertwined, and just as centrist liberals might use identity politics for strategic reasons while overlooking class, a large proportion of the left insist on a focusing on class to the exclusion of identity, which is off-putting to a lot of would be allies. Simple as that. You can insist all you like that 'left voters are more progressive on everything identity politics is actually about', but you repeatedly demonstrate the exact opposite.

That dude, Samuel Sinyangwe, who got called Richard Spencer, he tweeted out this image a while back, that shows the reduction in the racial wealth gap that would come from free college:

http://www.demos.org/sites/default/files/imce/Racial%20Wealth%20Gap_Fig%209_1.png

College degrees has a 'modest impact' on the gap, the driving force seems to be homeownership, to a large degree. So wanting to focus on a concerted degree of battling desegregation and racism instead of free health care and education does not meant that someone doesn't understand class.