a quick poll about Russia and Donald Trump

just set off the warheads, we all fooked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0IGc1gxXJs

every tweet is a comeback, every dollar's a little bit ruble

Shari, where is the EU 'joint statement' you're talking about?

Referenced here:

https://www.rferl.org/a/germany-austria-object-provision-us-senate-russian-sanctions-bill-nord-stream-2-natural-gas-pipeline/28557924.html

A spokeswoman for the European Commission told the Reuters news agency on June 16 that it was "important for possible new measures to be coordinated between international partners to ensure their impact internationally and to maintain unity among partners on the sanctions."

It's a statement on behalf of the European Commission rather than a formal joint statement.

It's really just a spokeswoman answering a question, no?

A spokeswoman representing the European Commission answering a question on whether the position of the European Commission is that new sanctions should be coordinated. It isn't phrased as strongly as the German / Austrian statement but I don't see any particular reason to question it.

However united the EU is, Congress aiming to bypass the executive and pass / maintain sanctions that have an impact on third-party countries is a pretty big deal for how the US and Europe get on.

do we know yet why jared kushner was secretly meeting with the russian ambassador after the election?

The story is here, btw: http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-russia-sanctions-eu-idINB5N1E000B It's a reaction to the German/Austrian response. It's not a 'joint statement', it's hardly a statement at all. And I think the impact of Donald Trump is a bigger deal than this sanction package. The unreliability of the US is annoying, but the only ones who think this sanction package is worse than Trump's behaviour on his last trip are... the Russians, I'd guess? A couple Austro-German CEO's as well, probably. But the governments of the two countries? I doubt it.

do we know yet why jared kushner was secretly meeting with the russian ambassador after the election?

tbqh, if I was investigating, the Kushner meetings with Kislyak and Vnesheconombank would be where I would start. If he was there on private business looking for investment, there would be a dead certain conflict of interest with his policy advisory role.

Getting into whether a spokesperson for the European Commission can truly be said to speak for the European Commission is a philosophical discussion I am not going to start at midnight but the question of whether Trump is worse than sanctions isn't the issue. They are going to end up with both and it runs the risk of opening up an even greater rift.

Lol. You invented a joint statement that didn't exist. That's not a 'philosophical question', that's a fuckup.

Agents of the Russian government were given orders to do everything in their power not only to reduce confidence in the US election result, but to influence it in favor of a candidate who is, based on his behavior, his statements, and policy directions (however ineffectual in the long term) in readily blackmail-able and/or in hock to same agents and/or their employer - which is, to bring us back to the start of my parenthetically augmented run-on, the Russian government.

They tried to hack state election systems to influence vote counts - the only reason this didn't work is because we use thousands of weird systems to count votes which makes the attack surface too convoluted to effectively manipulate the tally.
They did hack the DNC, the DCCC, the RNC, and who knows what else. They leaked what they wanted to, when they wanted to, to get Trump elected. Then he got elected and almost immediately began giving Russia special favors that make the US intel and defense community all but violently nauseous.
They did everything in their capacity to fuck with the democratic process in the US in order to help elect the most venal, stupid and easily manipulated lying sack of shit in our nation's history.

So pardon me if I don't give enough shits about the German economy lately.

And I don't think anyone here thinks congress conducting foreign policy is a particularly good idea, but the executive branch is clearly incapable of doing so... It's just not a simple issue, and hitting the Nordstream line is not something that Europe is unilaterally against.

Lol. You invented a joint statement that didn't exist.

It is the European Commission statement on the matter.

"It's not a simple issue" basically sums up my position and I am not specifically accusing you of treating it like one.

Xp

Whether you care about the German economy is neither here nor there. If you think it's worth the risk of fragmenting the united US / EU front on Russia, you might be right. It makes sense to at least acknowledge the context in which this plays out though.

trump is also the poster child for every russian allegation that americans are pigs. (and i agree with them! gogol, dostoyevsky, chekhov, and tolstoy could write like motherfuckers.) it's not hard to imagine -- given the overwhelming evidence of russian interference on behalf of two scoops -- that they're laughing their asses off at us. doesn't mean it's their fault trump is president or anything

Mr. Vari, I see your points and appreciate your input pretty much all the time.
I think the real issue might be the way you come across, as in, "I'm fairly sure nobody else has thought about this, but did you know Russia isn't always a monolith of evil?"
It feels like if I don't yell at you then your points might well go unexpanded upon. We all bring our priors to arguments, but maybe you can drop the one where we're all kneejerk anti-pinko twits.

it's not hard to imagine -- given the overwhelming evidence of russian interference on behalf of two scoops -- that they're laughing their asses off at us. doesn't mean it's their fault trump is president or anything

Ding ding ding.

SV is known here, to me at least, for bringing a more geopolitical, at times maybe more abstract view to the table. I value that. It doesn't come across as some 'holier-than-thou' schtick or saying all Muricans are 'anti-pinko's' to me (but then I'm not Murican). I value your input as well, always, Tombot. But I think we're getting nowhere if we're going down the Fred B. route, calling SV out in a childish manner and trying to box him into the 'pro Russia rube' corner either. Maybe I mean we shouldn't judge the other as much on her or his 'priors' but instead of what is said.

(Ps. Both Russia and America are well established 'monoliths of evil' tbh)

(Pps. I don't know a country that isn't a monolith of evil, come to think of it. Canada? Luxembourg?)

monolith of evil is GI Joe speak. let's be real here. characterizing other countries as evil based on your media impressions is beyond fucked. it is hard to imagine that there are not people in every country trying to influence elections in every other country. there have been leaks proving that the NSA is spying on multiple countries, and we have seen first-hand accounts of our intelligence agency doing exactly this for decades. influencing elections across the globe. including, in a huge irony, Russia itself, in the Clinton-era 90s. it was partly the overt and anti-democratic US interference that helped create the toxic oligarchy of 90s post-Soviet Russia. from my understanding Putin's career has been made fighting this western fueled corruption and hyper capitalism. he is adamantly against such meddling, and has based his career on fighting that, he claims. then there is the question of what is cyberwarfare and does it mean We Are At War With Russia if a roomful of guys spend a couple months making fake websites? or leaking real emails of what our democratically elected representatives are doing with our money? what is it we are fighting here?

what is it we are fighting here?

well, some people out there are actively trying to destroy the American Way, they're roughing up Truth on the daily, and a knife or five has been brandished in the face of Justice and her family. So we're fighting against those people, so that means what we're fighting for is the things they threaten.

SV brings different things to the table, not because he is 'abstract' or 'geopolitical' but because he makes up fake stuff and pushes that. I'm sorry, but he hasn't said a surprising thing for, like, a year and a half. Except when he claims something that turns out to be untrue.

Mordy wrote to SV that he got what SV was doing, because he himself was doing kinda the same thing with Israel, and I really respect Mordy for writing that - though I read what he says about Israel with a bit of skepticism, lol - and I'm just getting kinda tired of SV's shtick.

oh are we judging posters on whether they say things that are surprising now

LOL

"I'm sorry, but he hasn't said a surprising thing for, like, a year and a half."

https://i.imgur.com/j114jEX.gif

SV is a well known spoofer, for instance I don't believe for a second that he has ever been to Offaly.

Shari Vari is a valuable poster with a unique perspective based on knowledge pulled from sources outside of left twitter. You just don't like him, Fred, because he writes like a person and not like an ideolgical automoton in the creepy little game of internet toy soldiers that has now somehow become the world.

Whether one agrees with his posts in this thread or not is irrelevant. You're general point about him is wrong.

anyways, why doesn't the american president give a shit that the russian government interfered with the american election? it's the middle of june. not a peep out of donnie in all his loudmouth tweeting that we got punked. i'm not saying we should go to war or anything but this entire blase pall over the white house regarding the biggest ratfucking in american history is monumentally bizarre

iirc, he appreciates Putin's battle against western fueled corruption and hyper capitalism.

Trump doesn't want to acknowledge any facts that appear to undermine the legitimacy of his victory. He barely acknowledges that he lost the popular vote and makes excuses for it every time it's brought up. He's a stupid, insecure loser.

if I were an American interested in the long-term destruction of the republican party I'd be rooting for Trump to stay in office as long as possible tbh, I'm in disbelief at how much energy is spent breathlessly following every Russia development on the main Trump thread

I'm in disbelief at how much energy is spent breathlessly following every Russia development on the main Trump thread

Because of Mueller's independent investigation, this Russian imbroglio holds out the best chance of miring down the entire machinery of the US government and ending the Trump administration amid dire scandal and impeachment. When you compare this (admittedly minor) possibility to our chilliest fears connected to the complete Republican domination of our government, it seems worth holding one's hands close to this small flame of hope for a total Republican disaster.

I dunno, I have a really hard time imagining that even in the best case scenario, Pence, the Principled Conservative, doesn't step up to re-assert the status quo, with plenty of media help

Also Trump is an unstable, delusional sort of guy and having him in office presents a unique threat, beyond the threat posed by the disastrous, sadistic Republican agenda.

i'm in disbelief too. who cares if another country upended the 2016 american election? i'm sure it's a one time thing. i'm glad the party in control of the white house and congress (that benefited from the unprecedented interference) is taking what happened seriously, making sure it'll never happen again. can't wait to vote next year!

by all means, adopt paper balloting (PS we do it in Canada and it works!) and circumvent outside meddling, but that won't fix the rot at the heart of yr democracy (PS ours sucks too)

Pence wouldn'f become President if Trump is ousted due to Russiagate. He has been caught lying about what he knew about Flynn -- he is also part of the scandal and would likely resign. If Trump gets ousted early we are going to see a President Paul Ryan, a terrifying prospect, but hopefully bu the time he takes charge the Republican Party will be in tatters due to the fallout from the scandals.

Paper balloting is a good idea.

Ryan is the scariest of the three imo

but again, these goblins aren't the real/main problem. y'all need a genuine left party and if experience tells us anything, the Dems ain't it. (From the Canadian perspective, the NDP haven't been cutting it either, but there's at least some semblance of hope for reform there.)

ugh I'm sorry everyone, no one likes a hectoring canadian

how much energy is spent breathlessly following every Russia development

It's also worth noting that Trump, being who he is, reportedly also expends plenty of energy following every Russia development in the media and it is driving him crazy. The more obsessed he is with it, the less other mischief he can get up to.

I got way too grumpy last night - insomnia does that to me every now and then - and I do value ShariVari as a poster, who brings some very interesting information to the board, though other stuff honestly frustrates me and come on, you're in the wrong on this one, SV!!! ヽ(ಠ_ಠ)ノ

Still, it was too much, and I'm sorry.

IT'S ALL JUST A GIANT MISUNDERSTANDING / EXCUSE SORE LOSER LIBERALS ARE TELLING THEMSELVES

Paul Manafort met twice during the presidential campaign with Konstantin Kilimnik, who helped run the Ukraine office for his political consulting operation for 10 years — including a previously undisclosed dinner shortly before his own Russian ties forced him out of the Trump campaign.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/at-height-of-russia-tensions-trump-campaign-chairman-manafort-met-with-business-associate-from-ukraine/2017/06/18/6ab8485c-4c5d-11e7-a186-60c031eab644_story.html?utm_term=.9737d0f8372c

THE REAL SCANDAL IS BILL CLINTON TALKING TO LORETTA LYNCH ON AN AIRPORT TARMAC

Joy Ann Reid: Trump is drawing into war with Russia in Syria
Also Joy Ann Reid: Trump's problem is he didn't kill enough Russians in Syria pic.twitter.com/R2X3OTH5df

— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) June 19, 2017

the moral hazard whereby Trump not killing Russians is evidence hes in Russias pocket is leading exactly where I & others predicted it would

— Adam H. Johnson (@adamjohnsonNYC) June 19, 2017

he is not responsible for his actions. it's the liberals' fault for playing 'where's the birth certificate?' with comrade combover

Clearly letting Russia wage cyber warfare unencumbered would be a much safer thing to do.

Also, fuck that sanctimonious asshole. He and other left-wing assholes were wrong throughout the election about Russian interference, and now they get to play 'told you so' because the thing is - predictably, I would say - backfiring for Russia? Fuck that shit.

and your shit

were wrong throughout the election about Russian interference

tell me exactly how it went down and Putin's role in it, Fred.