A New Thread fot the Current Israel/Palestine/Lebanon mess

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The 1996 U.N. thing was something I hadn't thought about for quite a long time, though I now remember it pretty well. The thought got me a-googlin, which led me to this:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/17/lebanon.israel/10am/index.html

Pretty entertaining for deja-vu value.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost)
Ouch, that hurt. Are we still on for lunch tommorow?

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

i'm having pork.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:13 (nineteen years ago)

I was talking to a friend about this, who brought up some okay counterpoints (doesn't Hezbollah gather around UN buildings for shielding, etc.) and it is hilarious how this AP article COMPLETELY SHOOTS DOWN ALL OF THOSE POINTS.

S_P, I would hardly call "oh, don't worry, we're going to stop the bombing, we won't hit you" advanced warning.

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

jessie don't you know the ap is full of anti-semites too!?!?!?!?!??

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

No, actually it's EUROPE that's full of anti-semites. This
has been clear for at LEAST 60 years now.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:23 (nineteen years ago)

what about the jewish europeans?

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

What, you mean the few that survived?

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

BTW, I totally retract what I said about the bombing of the
UN personnel. It looks like a totally inexcusable act on the
part of the Israelis. The more I read about it, the angrier
I feel that the Israelis allowed this to happen. There should be
some real repercussions for this.

It's a really sad and cruel that these people were murdered.
But I think this incident, no matter how tragic, is peripheral
to the larger issues at hand.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

xpost - it probably ain't peripheral to the people who are dead.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:32 (nineteen years ago)

No, actually it's EUROPE that's full of anti-semites.

Don't go into hysterics.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost)
Really? Because if they are dead it seems to me they are
probably totally noncognizant of worldly affairs.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

you really are a dipshit.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:39 (nineteen years ago)

I'm inclined to believe that the IDF attack on UN positions is deliberate, but not entirely inappropriate. The location of the UN outposts, whether or not they are strategially located, provides some modicum of cover for Hizballah forces. It's not like Hizballah has never positioned themselves between innocent bystanders to draw Israeli fire. I am not saying that the deaths of the UNIFIL troops is excusable, I just want to point out that the mere presence of the UN in a time of war provides Hizballah with an opportunity to exploit the trigger-happy nature of the IDF.

― Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)

U.N. officials said Hezbollah militants had been operating in the area of the post near the eastern end of the border with Israel, a routine tactic to prevent Israel from attacking them.

"We did repeatedly in recent days say (to Israel) that this was an exposed position, that Hezbollah militants were 500 meters (yards) away shielding themselves near U.N. workers and civilians," U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland said. "That's why it is so inexplicable that what happened happened."

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:41 (nineteen years ago)

Hmm. So does that make everyone here right?

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:48 (nineteen years ago)

I'm confused as to the meaning of the word "exposed" w/r/t the UN observation post. I would think that the UN would have a vested interest in removing their people from a situation where they provide inadvertant cover to Hizballah. Again, I am not saying that what Israel did was excusable -- I think it was horrible -- but that I can understand why it happened.

― Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:53 (nineteen years ago)

I'm a little confused about that quote myself. It's like he's saying "We told Israel that we knew there was a strong likelihood that this would happen, which is why it's inexplicable that it happened."

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:14 (nineteen years ago)

500 meters isn't all that close.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:19 (nineteen years ago)

for instance

5 and 1/2 football fields away, for us dumb americans.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:22 (nineteen years ago)

another interesting thing i found from that blog: this time it ain't just kids. the notorious anti-semites at reuters published those.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)

500 meters is not all that close. But the players in this war are not static, either. How long would it take you to run the length of 5 and 1/2 football fields?

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is what purpose does UNIFIL still serve by being in Souther Lebanon at this point? Clearly there is no more peace to keep. The border is full of holes punched by the IAF and Israeli ground forces. Supply lines are cut that would allow UNIFIL to provide humanitarian relief (which I am not sure is part of UNIFIL's mandate). It seems that UN brass is well aware of the position that they find themselves in, yet is unwilling (or unable?) to place their troops out of harms way.

― Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:36 (nineteen years ago)

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is what purpose does UNIFIL still serve by being in Souther Lebanon at this point?

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is why you think that - barring any orders from the UN to leave, not to mention that movement during a battle only encourages you to be fired upon, not to mention that there aren't any fuckin' roads in that part of lebanon any more - the UNIFIL soldiers and civilians have any choice at this point?

Clearly there is no more peace to keep. The border is full of holes punched by the IAF and Israeli ground forces. Supply lines are cut that would allow UNIFIL to provide humanitarian relief (which I am not sure is part of UNIFIL's mandate). It seems that UN brass is well aware of the position that they find themselves in, yet is unwilling (or unable?) to place their troops out of harms way.

Again you make this seem as if Annan just waves a magic wand and 2300 people magically evacuate.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:48 (nineteen years ago)

"a few days ago, flyers were dropped down on us from the sky. this is one of them. we have deciphered it as a pic of nasrallah coming out of a vase saying "any services?" around him are the president of syria, the leader of hamas, and the iranian president. on the bottom of the vase it says "beirut". oh, and they are all sitting on a map of lebanon. i found this near the Phoenicia Hotel."

from beirut update

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:51 (nineteen years ago)

So, what's so bad about that flyer?

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:54 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's sort of funny that they're airdropping editorial cartoons.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:57 (nineteen years ago)

yeah silly me, i forgot, caricatures are only offensive when they're drawn by arabs. or danes.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:58 (nineteen years ago)

I really don't think political correctness is the most important issue at the moment. And even if it was, that cartoon is pretty tasteful as far as political cartoons go.

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:03 (nineteen years ago)

The Danes - ever victimized by the double standard of world opinion.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:04 (nineteen years ago)

I don't my posts to be interpreted as accusing the UN of bringing this on themselves. I think that the Israeli targeting of a clearly marked UN observation post is a huge mistake. If there was direct fire coming from this position, okay, Israel may have a leg to stand on. However, from the outset of this war I would have hoped that the UN could have predicted how its personell would be caught there. Hizballah, due to its proximity to the UN forces is certainly the beneficiary of the UN's presence. I didn't intend to make is seem like a simple operation to remove all the UNIFIL forces, but why didn't the UN see this predicament coming?

x-post to hstenc!l

― Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:04 (nineteen years ago)

it's not even about "offensiveness" or not, it's about how incredibly silly israel is if it thinks propaganda like this is going to have any effect on whomever's left hanging around beirut.

y'know hurting there's only so many times you can play the "oppressed people of history" card, since that isn't up for debate here. everybody knows it's true, no one's disputing that the jews have suffered the worst oppression throughout history. but continually making flippant remarks like that makes you seem, um, well about just as much an asshole as the muslims who say all jews must be killed, since you're equating the illegal, oppressive acts of the state of israel with the entire history of jewish suffering. way to play into their hands, champ.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:07 (nineteen years ago)

dan floss, this "war" as you call it is only 2 weeks old, and no one - not even hezbollah - saw it coming. the un is a beauracracy.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:08 (nineteen years ago)

anyway beirut update up there is definitely worth checking out as a first-hand account of what's going on in beirut (and not even a southern suburb or a refugee camp).

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:09 (nineteen years ago)

-- hstencil (hstenc!...), July 27th, 2006.

Can you show me where I'm playing this card?

ps I agree that the propaganda is silly and inept.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:10 (nineteen years ago)

I mean seriously dude, go fuck yourself. I'm not your goddamned strawman. Take your frustrations elsewhere.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:11 (nineteen years ago)

We Jews tend to get a little obsessive about our history of opression. I wonder if Armenians are the same way?

-- Abbadavid Berman (Hurtingchie...), July 13th, 2006 9:02 PM. (Hurting)

Seriously, it's like our version of baseball stats. That and what famous people are Jewish.

-- Abbadavid Berman (Hurtingchie...), July 13th, 2006 9:11 PM. (Hurting)

perhaps you're your own strawman.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:18 (nineteen years ago)

tho i suppose if you're really as acquainted with the jewish history of oppression you might actually not want to make fun of the danes.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:19 (nineteen years ago)

Before I turn this into a shouting match, let me just say that I'm usually the first one to GROAN when a Jewish person brings up "our history of persecution" to justify shit. And I feel about as unpersecuted as can be in Northern NJ, USA. So I don't know where you got the idea that I'm playing that "card." Maybe you misunderstood one of my comments?

The ones you're citing there are me POKING FUN at the Jewish tendency to obsess on this stuff. I generally make a point of not doing it, in fact I find it kind of gross.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:22 (nineteen years ago)

I don't follow how Hurting's Danish comment led to this.

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:24 (nineteen years ago)

The Dane thing had nothing to do with whether or not Jews are persecuted - you obviously want to pigeonhole me that way though.

I think the Danish cartoon was pretty offensive, and I don't think this one is quite as offensive (though it's pretty ineffective - great, imply that the people you're trying to convince come from a culture of SNAKE CHARMERS!)

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:25 (nineteen years ago)

i am sorry, but i found your comment about the danes pretty offensive given what they did during ww2 to help the jews. it was flippant and dismissive, also, as if to say that any other ethnicity or group cannot be oppressed. certainly the danes are not particularly oppressed (tho obviously their exports to the middle east are down right now!), nor have a history of it, but i don't think ANYONE is served by comparing one oppression to another, or even one to none. what is going on right now in lebanon is one country brutally oppressing another. period.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:25 (nineteen years ago)

yeah i have no idea why portraying a muslim cleric - even if he's an asshole - as a snake would be offensive (second google hit for "snakes allah")

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:27 (nineteen years ago)

What they did to help the Jews doesn't go unappreciated, btw. My father unabashedly loves Denmark and lived there for this reason alone.

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:28 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, relax. My dad organized a tribute concert and wrote music to commemorate the Danish rescue of Jews when I was in high school, and I ate dinner with one of the rescuers. I harbor no animosity toward the Danes.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:28 (nineteen years ago)

dads4danes

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:30 (nineteen years ago)

May I say that this exchange has been FUCKING RIDICULOUS?!

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:30 (nineteen years ago)

it still smacked to me of a "they're not worthy because they don't have a centuries-old history of oppression" style insult. which may seem silly of me to assume, at least of you, but almost every ethnic/religious group/whathaveyou says that.

which is crazy since we all know it's the WOMEN who have it bad in this fucked up world.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:31 (nineteen years ago)

xpost - i would only characterize squirrel police's posts as such, mr. hurtin'.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:31 (nineteen years ago)

Not what I meant at all. Clearly a misunderstanding.

― Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:32 (nineteen years ago)

I really doubt that the designers of that flyer were thinking "Gee how can we religiously offend the people who see this?" It's propaganda, not piss-you-off flyers.

― starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:33 (nineteen years ago)

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