immigrant & ethnic food cultures, white ppl & appropriation, foodies

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xp compare with 119 POC-owned restaurants in PDX, according to racist sandwich dot com (not making that up)

k3vin k., Saturday, 20 May 2017 19:34 (nine years ago)

ok if we can't have tiki bars then i'm voting for trump next time

“Yeah. Huh, thanks.” (los blue jeans), Sunday, 21 May 2017 04:09 (nine years ago)

jk all bars are bad

“Yeah. Huh, thanks.” (los blue jeans), Sunday, 21 May 2017 04:11 (nine years ago)

The Matador sounds like a Spanish restaurant, not Mexican. I say this not in a gotcha way, more curious about how Spanish and Latino cultures are linked wrt appropriation.

Or maybe it's just a Mexican restaurant with a poorly chosen name.

Uhura Mazda (lukas), Sunday, 21 May 2017 10:40 (nine years ago)

google doc'in it...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JJuHMuAeuHxy-c4nyp6NLghhrCdZYO7I5kDGSt22Ie8/edit#gid=0

― scott seward

only place on this list i really know (outside of voodoo donut which has overpriced donuts they roll in breakfast cereal, not really my thing) is burmasphere, because y'all have been talking about lahpet. reviews i've read say their lahpet is not the most authentic thing in the world, but man there ain't no other burmese place in this town!

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Sunday, 21 May 2017 14:51 (nine years ago)

saw this posted on FB with some brutal comments, some of which made good points and some of which... didn't. I feel like it could at least be a conversation, but people on both "sides" are already spitting mad.

rough takes I remember - is "how well the employees are treated/paid" a valid metric to make exceptions to the list? one of the dudes running a Mexican place apparently received the highest award the Mexican govt can give to foreigners, does that count somehow? the list treats restaurant expenditures as a zero-sum game, assuming that if you spend money at these places you're taking money away from the 119 businesses k3v mentioned above, which isn't really the case.

High Noon sells Native American frybread under a huge picture of John Wayne, I can see why people are pissed about that one.

HONOR THE FYRE (sleeve), Sunday, 21 May 2017 15:48 (nine years ago)

of course how the employees get treated matters, but that's generally not information that the potential consumer will reliably have to hand. i remember when i lived in louisville there was a "quirky" brunch places with all kinds of kitsch and really good... something, i forget what particular dish they had that was really good. they were super popular for a long time. anyway a couple years back the owner abruptly shuttered the business in a huff after someone suggested she might want to stop giving her workers unpaid overtime, or something along those lines. if i'd known she was in the habit of doing that, i probably would've eaten there less often.

personally i'd rather have _more_ information available to make decisions rather than less. if somebody wants to set up a separate metric tracking how restaurants treat their employees, goddamn yes i would pay attention to it.

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Sunday, 21 May 2017 19:06 (nine years ago)

isn't that what laws are for

k3vin k., Sunday, 21 May 2017 19:09 (nine years ago)

workers' rights are of paramount importance in kentucky

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Sunday, 21 May 2017 19:28 (nine years ago)

isn't that what laws are for

― k3vin k., Sunday, May 21, 2017 12:09 PM (nineteen minutes ago)

these are things that aren't consistently reported or enforced.

sarahell, Sunday, 21 May 2017 19:33 (nine years ago)

enforcement budget-cutting combined with regulatory capture can negate almost any law, as we have all learned

A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 21 May 2017 19:45 (nine years ago)

Really good Gustavo Arellano column.

grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:20 (nine years ago)

http://www.sfgate.com/food/article/2-white-women-opened-a-burrito-shop-It-closed-11173885.php

Οὖτις, Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:25 (nine years ago)

unperson, that is a very good article

gonna quote it bc it needs to be quoted

What these culture warriors who proclaim to defend Mexicans don't realize is that we're talking about the food industry, one of the most rapacious businesses ever created. It's the human condition at its most Darwinian, where EVERYONE rips EVERYONE off. The only limit to an entrepreneur's chicanery isn't resources, race, or class status, but how fast can you rip someone off, how smart you can be to spot trends years before anyone else, and how much money you can make before you have to rip off another idea again.

this is very true

the most famous food critic in los angeles is jonathan gold right now

i noticed that he name dropped a local chinese restaurant and a korean restaurant, and both places increased their prices and their food quality actually went down -- i'm guessing they're trying to stretch out their ingredients as much as possible

but these places still grew in popularity because of him

i n f i n i t y (∞), Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:38 (nine years ago)

is that... good or bad?

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:45 (nine years ago)

One commenter — of hundreds — claims the women "boldly and pretty f---ing unapologetically stole the basis of these women's livelihoods" so that "other white ppl don't have to be inconvenienced of dealing with a pesky brown middle woman getting in their way."

"They are clearly exploiting centuries of tradition and survival," wrote another.

News site Mic later picked up the story and brought it national attention with a story called, "These white cooks bragged about stealing recipes from Mexico to start a Portland business."

The Portland Mercury later ran its own coverage of the story. The blog post begins: "Portland has an appropriation problem," before going on to claim that Connelly and Wilgus "preyed upon" locals in order to "appropriate the secrets of their livelihood."

"These two white women went to Mexico, ate tacos, and then decided they would just take what the locals clearly didn't want to give them," it continues.

The story then calls the closure of Kooks Burritos a "victory" in a city that is 76.1 percent caucasian, according to the 2015 U.S. census.

can you imagine what people like this are like at parties

k3vin k., Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:48 (nine years ago)

xp

quoting gustavo arellano again:

Shameless? Absolutely. And that's what cultural appropriation in the food world boils down to: it's smart business, and that's why Mexicans do it, too. That's the same reason why a lot of high-end Mexican restaurants not owned by sinaloenses serve aguachile now: because Carlos Salgado of Taco Maria made it popular. That's why working-class Mexicans open mariscos palaces even if they're not from the coast—because Sinaloans made Mexican seafood a lucrative scene. That's why nearly every lonchera in SanTana serves picaditas, a Veracruzan specialty, even though most owners are from Cuernavaca. That's why a taqueria will sell hamburgers and French fries—because they know the pocho kids of its core clients want to eat that instead of tacos. And that's why bacon-wrapped hot dogs are so popular in Southern California—because SoCal Mexican street-cart vendors ripped off Mexicans in Tijuana, who ripped off Mexicans in Tucson, who ripped off Mexicans in Sonora.

To suggest—as SJWs always do—that Mexicans and other minority entrepreneurs can't possibly engage in cultural appropriation because they're people of color, and that we're always the victims, is ignorant and patronizing and robs us of agency. We're no one's victims, and who says we can't beat the wasichu at their game? And who says Mexicans are somehow left in the poor house by white people getting rich off Mexican food? Go ask the Montaños of Mitla how they're doing. Last year, they reopened a long-shuttered banquet hall, and the next generation is introducing new meals and craft beers. They cried about Bell's appropriation of their tacos all the way to the history books.

i n f i n i t y (∞), Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:48 (nine years ago)

i'd rather the article be written by someone who's not clearly a trump voter tbh

k3vin k., Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:51 (nine years ago)

yeah the SJW pejorative made me rmde

k3v Willamette Week also published this as an apparent rebuttal to the earlier Mercury article:

http://www.wweek.com/culture/2017/05/23/my-dad-is-from-mexico-i-cant-get-mad-at-kooks-burritos/

HONOR THE FYRE (sleeve), Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:51 (nine years ago)

that's a good piece sleeve

-_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 May 2017 22:56 (nine years ago)

doesn't gustavo arellano hate rick bayless tho

jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:00 (nine years ago)

i'd rather the article be written by someone who's not clearly a trump voter tbh

― k3vin k., Thursday, May 25, 2017 3:51 PM (six minutes ago)

does he say he voted for Trump? I know plenty of people who use the SJW acronym that are pretty far to the left.

sarahell, Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:02 (nine years ago)

iirc arellano's issue with Bayless is that he's a bit testy and pretentious, i think he's cool w/him cooking mexican food and being successful and famous for it.

nomar, Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:03 (nine years ago)

i've read a lot of his columns (mostly food-related) and nothing about him has suggested he's a trump voter

jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:03 (nine years ago)

there's a tendency for gross, superficial things to succeed over quality, and if tapping into some knee-jerk revulsion against lazy copying helps keep the bar higher, I can't say I'm against it.
I like reading jonathan gold articles but if his coverage makes stuff worse...
who is the quality sibling between rick and skip bayless?

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:06 (nine years ago)

xps to jim

yeah, I liked it because it treated the issue as an actual worthwhile conversation with some nuance, not just "lol SJW" mockery

HONOR THE FYRE (sleeve), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:08 (nine years ago)

rick is an accomplished and widely respected chef iirc; skip is a talking genital wart with hair implants

k3vin k., Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:09 (nine years ago)

lol k3vin

yes, 423114n0, the man who said this:

Most importantly, it’s time we form a Mexican-Muslim alliance. The numbers are there, and the similarities between us are astounding

is a trump voter

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/10/we-mexicans-welcome-muslims-as-the-new-public-enemy-number-one

i n f i n i t y (∞), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:10 (nine years ago)

Let the Republicans rant – after all, they’re going to be the ultimate losers in all this. Like Mexicans, most of the Muslims I know seem natural for that party: fiscally and socially conservative, with a particular affinity for family values. Yet Republicans push us to the Democratic side because they’re so obnoxious and clueless and really think we don’t belong to this country.

he may not have voted for trump but i was still otm

the combination of entrepreneurial worship and saying "SJW" is a pretty specific marker for a conservative person

k3vin k., Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:14 (nine years ago)

at that time, trump and most of the gop's ideology did not align

you're stretching it bud

i n f i n i t y (∞), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:15 (nine years ago)

to be fair (and maybe this goes against his point in the article), you kind of have to be entrepreneurially bent to seriously make it in food (versus, say, getting psyched about tortillas and expecting the world to reward you for turning that into a popup)

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:22 (nine years ago)

pretty sure that was are11an0s point actually

i n f i n i t y (∞), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:23 (nine years ago)

interesting angle philip, to view it in terms of not cultural (or not just cultural) but as cyclical or opportunism in the most predictable business sense-- this seems to have worked as a bespoke/artisan/small scale offering, time to scale up

whether you choose to focus on effect on individual traders with a cultural angle after that is up to you, but really this is how everything has always worked. food patent?

spud called maris (darraghmac), Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:27 (nine years ago)

well, in a less culturally charged example, ansel went after everyone ripping off his cronuts (through trademarks?)
i haven't had a "genuine" cronut, but the opportunistic ripoffs are pretty garbage-y so good on him, I guess? (though I suspect genuine cronuts are probably not so great either)
obviously, i'd switch sides as soon as someone came up with a ripoff that was good.

Philip Nunez, Thursday, 25 May 2017 23:40 (nine years ago)

can you imagine what people like this are like at parties

― k3vin k.

they're off in a corner compulsively checking their phones so they can post angry rants on facebook?

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Friday, 26 May 2017 00:11 (nine years ago)

the combination of entrepreneurial worship and saying "SJW" is a pretty specific marker for a conservative person

― k3vin k.

using "sjw" as a pejorative is less an indicator of political allegiance than it is an indicator of not having a friend on facebook who identifies as a sjw.

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Friday, 26 May 2017 00:14 (nine years ago)

Glad this thread is now about arguing about whether someone who uses "sjw" pejoratively is an immense tool

softie (silby), Friday, 26 May 2017 01:01 (nine years ago)

It's actually about whether lefties have appropriated the term hactually

spud called maris (darraghmac), Friday, 26 May 2017 01:23 (nine years ago)

where did this restaurant as some sort of noble charitable purpose idea come from? It's a business, businesses sell a product or service in order to make money and grow. Why would you expect someone who writes about businesses to judge them in terms of social justice or other virtue?

sarahell, Friday, 26 May 2017 12:39 (nine years ago)

i love that it's feeling insecure about whether it's okay to eat lahpet that's finally exposed ∞ for the secret trump voter that he is

, Friday, 26 May 2017 12:51 (nine years ago)

how do yucca fries fit into the appropriation context

sarahell, Friday, 26 May 2017 12:54 (nine years ago)

I assumed this was about the Pete Wells essay.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 26 May 2017 13:01 (nine years ago)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/dining/noma-tulum-pete-wells-mexico-rene-redzepi.html

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 26 May 2017 13:02 (nine years ago)

Under the rustling palms of Tulum, Mexico, the chef René Redzepi has been serving what Kevin Sintumuang, reporting for Esquire, called “the most enviable meal of the year.” Mr. Redzepi, who transplanted most of his staff to the Yucatán, while Noma, his restaurant in Copenhagen, prepares to move, said he wanted Noma Mexico to be “the meal of the decade.” For Jacob Richler, who wrote about the dinner for The Toronto Star, it was “the meal of a lifetime.”

And I’m going to miss it.

Not that I will be entirely in the dark about what other people have been eating when Noma Mexico, sometimes referred to as Noma Tulum, reaches the end of its seven-week run on Sunday. Despite having accommodations for just 7,000 people, all of whom claimed reservations within two hours last December, it may be the most exhaustively documented pop-up restaurant in history. Instagram has more than 5,000 images tagged #nomamexico, and journalists have been trooping into the jungle for weeks now.

And so, from Food & Wine’s Joshua David Stein, we have learned how the interior of a bromeliad called piñuela tastes when it has been blanched, peeled and “dotted with grasshopper paste onto which adheres delicate coriander flowers.” Samantha Teague of Gourmet Traveller told us what it was like to eat octopus wrapped in masa and corn husks that were placed in a clay pot and buried in hot coals. The fire-and-ice thrill of pasilla peppers poached in honey and stuffed with chocolate sorbet was detailed by Tom Sietsema of The Washington Post. “A sliced tiny banana, slicked with seaweed oil and dotted with a paste made with its own burnt peel” is among the impressions Jonathan Gold recounted in The Los Angeles Times.

Mr. Redzepi transplanted most of his staff from his Copenhagen restaurant to prepare what he calls “the meal of the decade” in Tulum. Credit Adriana Zehbrauskas for The New York Times
As these you-are-not-there dispatches clattered in over the Teletype, I had two thoughts: The first, of course, was, “Holy banana peels, can I pull some strings and get in?” This was quickly followed by, “What is the point?”

I could describe the workings of this Brigadoon in Quintana Roo if I wrote strictly as a reporter, the way Julia Moskin did in The Times last week. But Noma Mexico short-circuits my wiring as a critic. An actual review of a pop-up that sold out months ago strikes me as spectacularly useless. It would be as helpful as reviewing a wedding.

Of course, there are other reasons to write reviews. We restaurant critics do more than fill our mouths and then flash our greasy thumbs up or down. We try to assess the way a place fits into its context, including its environment. Part of this is simply sorting out whether, say, a new Sichuan restaurant in Queens is as good as, better than or different from all the other Sichuan restaurants nearby. We ask whether it’s providing something the location doesn’t already have, and whether it makes sense there. These are separate questions: Queens might not have an overpriced, incompetent Sichuan restaurant, but that doesn’t mean opening one is a good idea.

You don’t need to eat at Noma Mexico to know Tulum doesn’t have anything like it. But does it make sense there?

Start with the advertised cost — $600 a person, or $750 after tax and service charges. This is considerably more than Noma charged for its pop-ups in Sydney (around $350 without drinks) and Tokyo (about $380), two cities where it’s not unheard-of to spend that much on a meal.

Tulum is not a city; it’s a resort town, formerly a sleepy getaway of tilted palapas and sunrise yoga classes that has been climbing upscale. Largely thanks to the tourist economy, the state of Quintana Roo has the highest employment rate in the country, but the average income is in the bottom third. About half the state’s residents live in moderate to extreme poverty.

Before dinner reservations were available, Mr. Redzepi announced that he would also be serving free lunches to Mexican culinary students for the last two weeks of the pop-up. But, clearly, most of the people coming for dinner have paid for not just the meal but for flights to the Yucatán, a car rental or taxi to Tulum, and at least one night in a hotel.

It is no surprise that a paying audience exists for this tropical getaway. At this point in his career, Mr. Redzepi could sell out a weenie roast in Death Valley. What I find hard to run through my critical algorithms, though, is the idea of a meal devoted to local traditions and ingredients that is being prepared and consumed mostly by people from somewhere else.

The Noma philosophy, from the start, was rigorously local. Mr. Redzepi drew a circle around the Nordic region and gathered almost all his ingredients from inside it, with rare exceptions. Noma founded a next-level locavorism that is widely if not always intelligently imitated, and one of its legacies is the notion that restaurants with global ambitions must demonstrate a strong attachment to their location.

This “sense of place” expectation animates a lot of the jousting behind the annual list of the World’s 50 Best Restaurants, among other things. And it has led to a strange new sight: dining rooms where expensive celebrations of the local environment are enjoyed largely by tourists.

By all reports, Noma Mexico has sense of place in spades. The path to the jungle dining area is lined with baskets of jackfruit and mangos. The tables slipped in between the palms were made from a local hardwood. Directly in front of the kitchen, four women from a nearby Mayan village make tortillas.

But can a restaurant really be of its place if it doesn’t bend and sway to the breezes of local tastes and local demands? I doubt it, and I doubt that my own ecstatic reveries (for the sake of argument, let’s assume that I would have enjoyed Noma Mexico as much as everybody else) would help on that front. I’d be another tourist, hoping to be knocked out with sensations that would carry over to the flight back to New York.

The staff working on salbute with dried tomatoes and chapulines (grasshoppers). Credit Adriana Zehbrauskas for The New York Times
Back home at the keyboard, I’d calculate how many words to spend on sensory pleasures and how many on the $2,000 or so that my employers were on the hook for, whether it was “worth it” and whether the local standard of living was likely to be helped by the attention Noma had brought to Mexican ingredients.

Fretting about the ethics of eating a meal costing hundreds of dollars is a particularly awkward form of talking with your mouth full. I know, because I’ve done it before and will do it again, always with a small pit of shame in my gut. The two things can never really be reconciled, without some shady bookkeeping.

I don’t blame Mr. Redzepi and the Noma crew for coming up with an event that makes my critical lens fog over. They’ve acknowledged that they owe something to Mexico and tried to pay it back. In Tulum, they’re chasing their curiosity and raising new bars to vault over, which is what creative people should do.

That’s the artistic side of Noma Mexico. On the business front, they’ve chosen to pour their creativity into something that, because of its planned scarcity and relative expense, has to be seen as a luxury product. Luxury goods tend to float free of the everyday world and create their own cultural context, one of wealth and exclusivity. There are many ways to respond to that, but in this case, I don’t think a review written by me is one of them. I’d rather review a restaurant that has its roots in the ground.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 26 May 2017 13:04 (nine years ago)

exactly what i read the times for - performative white guilt

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Friday, 26 May 2017 13:16 (nine years ago)

Send that back it's too salty

spud called maris (darraghmac), Friday, 26 May 2017 13:21 (nine years ago)

i love that it's feeling insecure about whether it's okay to eat lahpet that's finally exposed ∞ for the secret trump voter that he is

― 龜, Friday, May 26, 2017 5:51 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

what does this even mean? they're literally randomly stringed sentences based on nothing i've said

i never said anything about whether it's okay to eat or not eat lahpet

but anyone should eat whatever they want

i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, 26 May 2017 18:03 (nine years ago)

∞ endorses cannibalism, clearly and obviously a trump voter

Cyborg Kickboxer (rushomancy), Friday, 26 May 2017 18:16 (nine years ago)

trump ran on a campaign that promised all americans the right to eat whatever they wanted, including humans, including babies

it's a fundamental american right

i n f i n i t y (∞), Friday, 26 May 2017 18:20 (nine years ago)

unsurprising he started the presidency with executive orders telling us exactly what to eat

mh, Friday, 26 May 2017 21:37 (nine years ago)


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