Democratic (Party) Direction

It's better in some ways, worse in others. The victories of feminism, the civil rights movement, and the gay rights movement have made this an infinitely more just society, even though there is still much work to be done. But the backdrop against which those victories were able to occur seems to be fracturing due to a range of factors including reactionary backlash and regular old anomie. Trump's election represented a catastrophic implosion of standards/norms which will have consequences down the line -- what these will be, idk.

xp DJI

As always, I'm not American, but I don't think the US has gotten more racist. Structural discrimination just always wants to seem as benign as possible, so it becomes much more ugly when it has to, when it's threatened. If slightly-less-racism takes some power, racism will try to take power back. It has to be beaten over and over until there's no hope of victory.

It's the typical 'look what you made me do!'. The violence was always implicitly there. In the long run, no sense in not provoking it, has to be confronted and beaten, over and over and over.

Also right wing media is deliberately capitalizing on people's fears/confusion and channeling these feelings into political anger via racial and gender-based scapegoating. These memes then take on a life of their own on the internet, in the " manosphere" and all these other toxic sinkholes, including overtly racist spaces. The kinds of sentiments trafficked there are, I think, the single greatest threat to our society. The first greatest is capitalism because it's "creative destruction" is creating all these lost people who are being recruited as if to a cult into ideologies of hate.

idk how you make people less racist tbh. feel like there's some "magic" in there that no one really understands.

From a socialist perspective (and the reason I think it gets raised by leftists which gets interpreted as "burn identity politics" or "appeal to racists"), the key to me would be avoiding competition for a scarce resource like... livable jobs.

That doesn't really work as an explanation of American history, though.

racists don't deserve livable jobs. they're too dumb to be making demands. they're the ones we should be prejudiced against, and sexists and classists. fuck accommodationism

But how do you determine who are the racists?

That doesn't really work as an explanation of American history, though.

racists don't deserve livable jobs.

call me crazy but imo even bad people deserve to be able to get by

way more worried about people who are poor this minute and victims of racism/sexism/classism than potential racists etc or other bad people. too much sympathy for the status quo can rot the soul

What kinds of policies would help good people but not bad people?

This is a non-starter.

Either we believe in accessible food, housing and healthcare or we don't.

milo: It really can't explain slavery at all, and that's still the root of the story of American racism, no?

haha, wait, you don't think chattel slavery and the American plantation system is tied to capitalism?

haha, wait, that was not at all what you said before.

There is nothing inherent in dark skinned people that makes light skinned people hate them. Racism is some kind of historical phenomenon. Its origins are complex and overdetermined but in the American context they have much to do with justifying slavery, colonialism, genocide and ofher institutions that at their core had an economic origin.

What kinds of policies would help good people but not bad people?

virtue being its own reward iirc

haha, wait, that was not at all what you said before.

You've really got to work to be this stupid.

There is nothing inherent in dark skinned people that makes light skinned people hate them. Racism is some kind of historical phenomenon. Its origins are complex and overdetermined but in the American context they have much to do with justifying slavery, colonialism, genocide and ofher institutions that at their core had an economic origin.

― Treeship, Friday, May 5, 2017 11:42 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its primal lizard brain shit thats part of our brain's operating system unfortunately

xp But then, you're the guy who scoffed at someone quoting Stokely Carmichael on capitalism and racism.

Yeah, that's a lie.

And apparently your ability to argue your case is nil, so I guess the ad hominem attacks are going to get a lot worse from now on. Goodnight.

AND GOOD DAY SIR

Ah come on fred, bad form

Goddamnit why does Fred always have to shit up politics threads. America for Americans.

Anyway, this is an interminable conversation. I just want the democrats to get their act together enough to beat a party whose policies actively harm 95% of voters

My problem with the whole "don't appeal to racists" thing is I don't know what we mean by "racists." Like if we're talking about some archetypal hick who openly professes hatred of all people of color, that's not the majority of Trump voters. And plenty of democratic voters express more quiet forms of racism just like republicans do. Now I'm all for not appealing to racism (which, btw, the Clintons both have done), but you're not going to have many voters if you avoid seeking the votes of "racists."

by racists i mean assholes toward african americans, latinos, arabs, asians, and so forth

fuck them

Agreed.

How would that affect the way you ran a presidential campaign? How would your approach differ from, say, Sanders in light of this "fuck racists" attitude?

What is this conversation even about?

I'm not even trying to be a dick I just want to understand what the moral reservation is from trying to appeal to the economic plight of poor whites with outsized electoral power? Wouldn't it be better to give them a non-racist political narrative to embrace?

it's like y'all have never dealt with racists and sexists

or voters

You're not going to convince them to not be racist with a campaign anyway. The job of the democrats is to prevent the racist party from killing everyone.

sorry but that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard

on a thread that is chock full of stupidity

I just don't think clinton lost bc of her opposition to structural racism and sexism. That would have been noble. I think she lost because people 1.) are deplorable--fine and 2.) thought she was a snob.

the job of the democrats is to prevent the racist party from killing everyone

a snob you say?

ppl were sick of politics and opted for an alternative

It's fine for me to be a snob I'm not running for president.

Sorry for posting about the Democratic (party) direction it's a sickness.

personally i think the problems of the left have less to do w people like clinton and wasserman schulz and more to do w the actual people that make up the left

cue bug eyed rage for conflating the democratic party and the left

"actual people that make up the left" is poorly phrased, sorry, but you know what i mean

'demos' means "people". anyone who wants to divide the 'demos' up can vote GOP and fuck right off. how do you direct a party to win elections against stuck up bigots? stop acting like america is a meritocracy, when it hasn't been in a long, long time, and recognize financial inequality is as bad as it's been since the great goddamn depression. tax wealth. tax investment. advocate universal health care. despise racists / classists / sexists -- no matter how subtle and/or sophisticated those assholes might come off

mmm dude you sound kind of unhinged

i'm beyond unhinged. 24,000,000+ americans are un-health-cared potentially, as of yesterday

maybe if you perform more anger on the internet they will get their healthcare back

probably not tho

the time is potentially out of joint