Democratic (Party) Direction

Racism and bigotry. Unless you think it's innate, writing off as incorrigible demographics who exhibit more racism isn't going to do anything positive.

right but is the problem to make them less racist or just to get their votes cuz those are two different things

legalize grass. offer reparations to the descendants of slaves. medicare and social security for all. universalize health care. make public education through college tuition-free. pay for a better more christian society by taxing the fuck out of rich dicks going to hell anyways (according to jesus in the new testament). prosecute donald trump for colluding with vladimir putin to steal the 2016 US election for the seditious GOP

xp - I think I referred to that in the first sentence about who actually advocates for appealing to racists?

Weed is one of the more craven and depressing failures on the part of Democrats. Even knowing it's an enormously popular move to legalize and the right thing to do, the party machine as a whole won't get on board and some remain actively hostile (like Cuomo).

idk how you make people less racist tbh. feel like there's some "magic" in there that no one really understands.

xp

I saw somewhere societal shaming actually is a very useful way. Also, ensuring that racism doesn't pay by making sure anti-racism - or at least slightly-less-racism, sigh - wins as much power as possible.

making sure anti-racism - or at least slightly-less-racism, sigh - wins as much power as possible

the weird thing is this country seemed to get MORE racist after we put a black man in the white house

Seems like shaming worked on the surface, but may have made things worse long-term/underneath.

Although as fucked up as things seem to be these days, I guess it's hard to argue that it's truly WORSE than in the past.

making sure anti-racism - or at least slightly-less-racism, sigh - wins as much power as possible

the weird thing is this country seemed to get MORE racist after we put a black man in the white house

― Οὖτις, Friday, May 5, 2017 3:53 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

seems to have accelerated/accentuated the split in the country. with white racial grievance being a bigger determinant in voting intention in the 2016 election than in the two obama elections.

I blame the internet

the weird thing is this country seemed to get MORE racist after we put a black man in the white house

theorizing here: by putting a black democrat in the WH at a time of ott partisanship, the torrent of vitriolic criticism that would have been aimed at any dem president was specifically aimed at a black man. this effectively mobilized the entire partisan machinery of the right in an effort that could barely be distinguished from overt racism, which legitimized it in ways it hadn't been legitimate in the immediately preceding period.

sounds plausible

It's not implausible. My family got more homophobic when I came out.

it's not that hard to see that nepotism compromises the DNC the way it does every other prestige organization in the US

we're doomed if even the lefties keep mistaking daddy/mommy applause / connections for true grit and natural raw intelligence

It's better in some ways, worse in others. The victories of feminism, the civil rights movement, and the gay rights movement have made this an infinitely more just society, even though there is still much work to be done. But the backdrop against which those victories were able to occur seems to be fracturing due to a range of factors including reactionary backlash and regular old anomie. Trump's election represented a catastrophic implosion of standards/norms which will have consequences down the line -- what these will be, idk.

xp DJI

As always, I'm not American, but I don't think the US has gotten more racist. Structural discrimination just always wants to seem as benign as possible, so it becomes much more ugly when it has to, when it's threatened. If slightly-less-racism takes some power, racism will try to take power back. It has to be beaten over and over until there's no hope of victory.

It's the typical 'look what you made me do!'. The violence was always implicitly there. In the long run, no sense in not provoking it, has to be confronted and beaten, over and over and over.

Also right wing media is deliberately capitalizing on people's fears/confusion and channeling these feelings into political anger via racial and gender-based scapegoating. These memes then take on a life of their own on the internet, in the " manosphere" and all these other toxic sinkholes, including overtly racist spaces. The kinds of sentiments trafficked there are, I think, the single greatest threat to our society. The first greatest is capitalism because it's "creative destruction" is creating all these lost people who are being recruited as if to a cult into ideologies of hate.

idk how you make people less racist tbh. feel like there's some "magic" in there that no one really understands.

From a socialist perspective (and the reason I think it gets raised by leftists which gets interpreted as "burn identity politics" or "appeal to racists"), the key to me would be avoiding competition for a scarce resource like... livable jobs.

That doesn't really work as an explanation of American history, though.

racists don't deserve livable jobs. they're too dumb to be making demands. they're the ones we should be prejudiced against, and sexists and classists. fuck accommodationism

But how do you determine who are the racists?

That doesn't really work as an explanation of American history, though.

racists don't deserve livable jobs.

call me crazy but imo even bad people deserve to be able to get by

way more worried about people who are poor this minute and victims of racism/sexism/classism than potential racists etc or other bad people. too much sympathy for the status quo can rot the soul

What kinds of policies would help good people but not bad people?

This is a non-starter.

Either we believe in accessible food, housing and healthcare or we don't.

milo: It really can't explain slavery at all, and that's still the root of the story of American racism, no?

haha, wait, you don't think chattel slavery and the American plantation system is tied to capitalism?

haha, wait, that was not at all what you said before.

There is nothing inherent in dark skinned people that makes light skinned people hate them. Racism is some kind of historical phenomenon. Its origins are complex and overdetermined but in the American context they have much to do with justifying slavery, colonialism, genocide and ofher institutions that at their core had an economic origin.

What kinds of policies would help good people but not bad people?

virtue being its own reward iirc

haha, wait, that was not at all what you said before.

You've really got to work to be this stupid.

There is nothing inherent in dark skinned people that makes light skinned people hate them. Racism is some kind of historical phenomenon. Its origins are complex and overdetermined but in the American context they have much to do with justifying slavery, colonialism, genocide and ofher institutions that at their core had an economic origin.

― Treeship, Friday, May 5, 2017 11:42 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its primal lizard brain shit thats part of our brain's operating system unfortunately

xp But then, you're the guy who scoffed at someone quoting Stokely Carmichael on capitalism and racism.

Yeah, that's a lie.

And apparently your ability to argue your case is nil, so I guess the ad hominem attacks are going to get a lot worse from now on. Goodnight.

AND GOOD DAY SIR

Ah come on fred, bad form

Goddamnit why does Fred always have to shit up politics threads. America for Americans.

Anyway, this is an interminable conversation. I just want the democrats to get their act together enough to beat a party whose policies actively harm 95% of voters

My problem with the whole "don't appeal to racists" thing is I don't know what we mean by "racists." Like if we're talking about some archetypal hick who openly professes hatred of all people of color, that's not the majority of Trump voters. And plenty of democratic voters express more quiet forms of racism just like republicans do. Now I'm all for not appealing to racism (which, btw, the Clintons both have done), but you're not going to have many voters if you avoid seeking the votes of "racists."

by racists i mean assholes toward african americans, latinos, arabs, asians, and so forth

fuck them

Agreed.

How would that affect the way you ran a presidential campaign? How would your approach differ from, say, Sanders in light of this "fuck racists" attitude?

What is this conversation even about?

I'm not even trying to be a dick I just want to understand what the moral reservation is from trying to appeal to the economic plight of poor whites with outsized electoral power? Wouldn't it be better to give them a non-racist political narrative to embrace?

it's like y'all have never dealt with racists and sexists

or voters