immigrant & ethnic food cultures, white ppl & appropriation, foodies

"Normal" food or "American" food or "family style" food is a magnification of privilege that is, I think, largely invisible to its hypertensive beneficiaries.

So is ... food

So true. My parents, who both grew up in financially limited circumstances, tried to instill in me the belief that "wholesome, home cooked" food was morally and dietetically superior to even the best restaurant in the world. Their parents instilled the same value in them, but in that case it was ex post facto justification for depression-era financial sacrifices. My mom has probably been to less than thirty restaurant in her lifetime, and she's in her seventies. When she comes to my house, and I serve her food that is not "wholesome, home-cooked" it raises at least an eyebrow. This includes, incidentally, bread/yogurt/jam that I do not make from scratch, and eggs from chickens I do not own. It's a strange and antique snootiness, and though intended to convey simple living is ironically dependent on the financial freedom and leisurely schedule necessary to raise chickens and make own bread, yogurt and jam.

So true. My parents, who both grew up in financially limited circumstances, tried to instill in me the belief that "wholesome, home cooked" food was morally and dietetically superior to even the best restaurant in the world. Their parents instilled the same value in them, but in that case it was ex post facto justification for depression-era financial sacrifices. My mom has probably been to less than thirty restaurant in her lifetime, and she's in her seventies. When she comes to my house, and I serve her food that is not "wholesome, home-cooked" it raises at least an eyebrow. This includes, incidentally, bread/yogurt/jam that I do not make from scratch, and eggs from chickens I do not own. It's a strange and antique snootiness, and though intended to convey simple living is ironically dependent on the financial freedom and leisurely schedule necessary to raise chickens and make own bread, yogurt and jam.

username irony

My mom's parents were farmers and incredibly frugal (again, during and post-depression mentality) but completely on the other side of things -- my grandmother's family was very transient and she lived in a half dozen places as a kid so she wasn't used to farm fresh stuff, my grandfather was scrappy in the way farmers could be but really wasn't that proficient. I think they had one dairy cow for a few years but it's not a dairy region. Same with chickens, it just wasn't anything they were into. I think when my grandparents met, my grandma was a telephone operator.

So my mom had bland junk like powdered milk and canned hominy. This whole "farm people, simple life" thing wasn't even the everyman approach of their day.

my wife has mentioned in the past how when she grew up, one reason she hated eating vegetables was that her parents bought them all canned or jarred. along with a lot of canned meat. i think i had a lot of that growing up as well, but maybe not nearly as much.

Perhaps it's a practicality thing. My grandparents didn't eat at restaurants - you could do it cheaper at home. And while they were for 'home cooking' they were enthusiastically pro tinned/dried foods. I think it was largely a consequence of rationing. They would certainly not have any time for 'fads', which would probably include my veganism in addition to people avoiding carbs etc. ('bread and potatoes is what food is!')

many an xpost: absolutely i'm shitting on that article. but defend this:

"It seems that publishers are shy of taking on a book that really has no precedent with which to make a reasonable estimate of sales figures."

i also figure some publishers like their job. i realize this is a dumb thing to express a general frustration with. but as someone who genuinely believes that voice should be given to those who can carry it best, i really fucking hate half-baked, bougie critiques about race in america. there's so much violence here: do it right. do your fucking homework.

i'll see myself out...

lol - "i, a white male, demand that only people i personally approve of be allowed to talk about race." stop posting and go back into whatever lurker hole you crawled out of.

xp - it could have done a more deft and thorough job tying in the publishing point and the history of colonialism, and as writing, it wasn't the best in those parts, but I was sympathetic to the writer's overall argument.

l.i.w. - did you agree with the overall argument and just take issue with how it was written, and/or various points made (e.g. the turducken thing, which seemed a bit of a stretch, but for all I know, there is an overlooked history of smaller animals cooked inside bigger animals that was imported to Europe like many other Chinese things)

iirc aren't there a bunch of medieval dishes like the turducken? Stuffed peacock etc. And stuffed camel as a semi-legendary arabic dish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_stuffed_camel

the stuffed peacock was, iirc, other food items stuffed in the peacock, as opposed to the russian doll effect of the turducken and its Chinese relative

in tudor england there was the tudor christmas pie

The contents of this dish consisted of a Turkey stuffed with a goose stuffed with a chicken stuffed with a partridge stuffed with a pigeon. All of this was put in a pastry case, called a coffin and was served surrounded by jointed hare, small game birds and wild fowl.

"like, can't anyone sign a lease and open a restaurant (with financial backing, obv)? or is the author saying that elected representatives mediate what kinds of restos open in different parts of LA. i just don't get the argument."

I think the latter is likely completely true. I don't know that it's a good idea, but cities and licenseing and approvals and zoning are weird business.

Financial backing = speaking the language of inventors, having the access to tools to present a certain kind of business plan, knowing how to access capital, to be believable as a endeavor so people trust you with their money.

Licensing etc = Idk about other cities but in NYC it's easier to get your liquor license and permits and stuff if you can get the approval of your local community board. This means going to a monthly meeting, making a presentation, getting community members on your side by showing how your business will benefit them. Often, members don't approve if they don't think the projected clientele is "desirable" or if they think it will increase noise or garbage distribution or other concerns. You can still get a license without this approval but it's harder and I think costs more or takes longer or something?

Not trendy enough = cities and business organizations may offer tax rebates, credits, free promotion, all kinds of incentives for fitting in with commercial development initiatives if your business is desirable to them, or fits into whatever category they're supporting this election cycle. But you need policy advisors and politically savvy staffers and a connection to local electeds or business organizations in order to benefit.

Not even counting redlining, language barriers, access to real estate and fair treatment by landlords, and infinite other factors. All else is NOT equal when it comes to being able to open a restaurant at will.

I mean that's just ridiculous.

Zoning is relatively straightforward unless you need some sort of variance (e.g. sidewalk dining, or where your dumpster goes) or conditional use permit (which for restaurants isn't something you have to deal with as much as other types of businesses, because unless you're looking to open a restaurant in a heavy manufacturing zone or a totally residential zone, the area is likely to allow restaurants).

The big hurdles for restaurants as far as licensing goes involve building, fire, and health. There aren't really community boards, you are dealing with city and county departments. Traditionally these departments (esp. building) have been dominated by people of one or two ethnic groups, and members of said group often "have an in" with officials. In San Francisco, "back in the day" it was the Irish. In Oakland, actually, the building department has a lot of Chinese-American officials, I think SF does too, so it is a lot easier for Chinese restaurants run by Chinese people to open in these cities, as opposed to other cities where the language barrier often makes this more of a challenge.

Alcohol licenses in major cities in California have neighborhood quotas that sometimes mean you have to go through a broker to buy someone else's liquor license (this is for a full bar, beer & wine you don't have to deal with this aspect). As far as the community aspect, in some areas you have to have a hearing about your license, where community input comes in handy.

Basically, it's dealing with large bureaucracies, and more "well-connected" and affluent restaurateurs will hire managers or expediters to get this stuff done faster (because it can take a year or more to deal with without help).

Small restaurants don't really get tax rebates and credits in major cities in CA (professional sports teams and tech companies otoh), but back in the day of redevelopment agencies (R.I.P. redevelopment agencies), you'd see some serious disparities between who got free money to renovate and make improvements to buildings and who didn't.

re: zoning -- omg i forgot to mention parking!!! Parking! California! -- it is often the most contested thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if racism affected health department officials vis a vis Chinese-owned restaurants, in that the stereotype is that they violate health codes a lot, so the health dept people would treat them unfairly compared to restaurants run by white ppl

gentrification and rising rents is its own form of selectively choosing which restaurants can be in a certain area too, i think in L.A. you have entire stretches of major neighborhoods where restaurants are suddenly saddled with a ridiculous rent hike and one of the local restaurant ownership groups swoops in and snatches up the spot and suddenly there's a new dining "option" with a lot of reclaimed wood and edison bulbs and a cocktail "program" and small but "inventive" brunch menu too.

i should clarify, you see a lot of long time restaurants get these rent hikes and they're forced to move. in area like Silver Lake and Los Feliz and Echo Park (and others, i'm just more familiar w/those places) you see a lot of ethnic food joints that are forced to move. lots of them promise they'll reopen elsewhere but they are never able to.

gentrification is rather a different process than being nixed by 'a city representative'

political connections are often helpful in gentrification issues. San Francisco recently established the category of "legacy businesses" - that get city funding in order to stay in their gentrifying neighborhoods.

in area like Silver Lake and Los Feliz and Echo Park (and others, i'm just more familiar w/those places)

these are the preeminent hipster/yuppie hoods, yeah? I mean, when I was in L.A. two years ago for JBR's wedding, those were the places I ended up going shopping and out to eat with friends. Guessing that the two other neighborhoods I ended up seeing while going record/used music gear/vintage clothing shopping are gonna be next in line for this.

I wouldn't be surprised if racism affected health department officials vis a vis Chinese-owned restaurants, in that the stereotype is that they violate health codes a lot, so the health dept people would treat them unfairly compared to restaurants run by white ppl

― sarahell, Wednesday, April 26, 2017 1:27 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark

i think there is a not-insignificant cost of compliance with health codes too which immigrant-owned businesses have trouble with, either due to the language barrier or because it costs real money to bring someone in who knows how to set up a code-compliant kitchen

^^ or both!

yeah those areas have been long gentrified (Echo Park most recently). Highland Park is really the area changing the most now. people are trying to find areas where houses don't cost 1.2 million but instead cost 700k.

there are a lot of areas northeast of downtown that are going through the same shift, Lincoln Heights, Boyle Heights, etc. there's a lot of worry about it in communities around East L.A., i think.

Highland Park is really the area changing the most now

haha! that is one of the two!

i thought it might be! i think it's the most "record store/vintage shop/music gear" part of town.

anyway there were a lot of protests there over the last year, there was a minor controversy when some people were going around handing out flyers to shops accusing them of being part of the gentrification and whitewashing of the area. not sure how effective it was. i think right now there's a good balance in that neighborhood but i'm worried it's going to end up tipping too far into white ppl territory. last time i went there for a night out i walked down Figueroa and it was ridiculous how many artisanal cocktail bars are along there now. even the reopened bowling alley has become one. i mean it's one of the most beautiful bowling alleys i've ever seen but it's also a pretty intolerable spot, at least that night it was.

what "ethnic" food are you eating in los feliz? the place is filled with white hipsters and trendy shops (at least vermont and hillhurst are)

silverlake i'm not in enough (hate going there), but from what i recall, it had a very hipster/trendy vibe. there's that one popular pho place (on sunset?) that's owned by asians (i want to say they are vietnamese but idk). echo park is also hipster central, with dirty hippies, packed with trendy places and vegetarian restaurants but more divey/trashy looking

ethnic foods: san gabriel valley (san gabriel, monterey park, alhambra, arcadia), chinatown, little tokyo, koreatown, little osaka/sawtelle, little ethiopia, jewish places are spread out but around fairfax (where canter's is), or pico/robertson, thai is kind of spread out too, but you can get dece thai on the eastern part of hollywood and more in east hollywood proper, torrance for japanese food too (sometimes okay korean food)

central american/latin american/mexican are all over the place, but parts of hollywood, boyle heights, east los angeles, etc

i wrote a really long response wrt that vice piece, but deleted it. basically, though, i agree with a lot of the writer's conclusions, but her arguments make to vast of a generalization of white people. and i say this as a white person who spent most of his life chilling with white and non-white families as a kid

there was definitely a turning point in the neighborhood where I work now when Johnny's Donuts closed and Donut Savant opened in its place. Granted Donut Savant has the best donuts in the East Bay, perhaps the Bay Area, but ...

not all white people

not all chinese-character username ilxors

gentrification is rather a different process than being nixed by 'a city representative'

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:36 PM (forty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is kind of wrong or at least an oversimplication, in that as sarahell mentioned there are some cities that help stabilize existing businesses in the face of gentrification, or in areas where cities have helped along gentrification using eminent domain powers to oust existing businesses

or when the area near a freeway in the city is expanding and the lower rent areas that back up to the freeway are turned into an on-ramp and the neighborhood disappears

^^ a major aspect of Oakland's history

i'm not gonna diminish L.A.'s ethnic food scene which is the best in the country imo. i think through in certain neighborhoods you have longtime tenants who get booted. the most recent one was Yuca's on Hollywood Blvd, which was forced out after the landlord decided not to renew their lease. maybe there were other issues, idk. however w/all of the other places half a block down that have opened up, it feels like they'd be aiming for another client maybe? idk.

along Virgil this seems to be more of a thing (that's not really Los Feliz, i guess.) where Sqirl is and so on. Amalia's is gone, Cha Cha Cha is gone, etc. i think in the case of the latter the property was acquired for a couple million. whether the restaurant owned the space and closed down by choice or was booted by a new landlord, i'm not sure. there's a lot of money being thrown around either way, it's changing areas pretty rapidly.

very true

just look at grand central and at least half of downtown

a buddy is actually working on that bridge downtown and says they will start constructing more buildings (mixed development building i assume)

mixed use development building*

first time i went to grand central it was a really interesting wide array of ethnic foods. now it's slightly less of that, plus eggslut and pourover coffee and a juice bar etc.

i haven't actually read this thread in ages but i was reading about spanish double agent juan pujol garcia and two clicks later i was at a page about haggis pakora. is this cultural appropriation? more importantly, has anybody had this and is it as fucking awesome as it sounds?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/opinion/sunday/why-is-asian-salad-still-on-the-menu.html

gotta admit i've never ordered or seen an asian salad before

http://i.imgur.com/CQQ2ob9.jpg

looks fun!

i seem to remember seeing it on menus in the midwest as a kid

i mean...there are actual asian salads too

tho the good ones prob do not go by "asian salad"

thai salads aren't bad

but i prefer japanese salads

tho the good ones prob do not go by "asian salad"

― k3vin k., Thursday, April 27, 2017 3:13 PM (one minute ago)

you don't say!

i say prob because you never know!!