Post a controversial opinion

I've watched cyclists blow red lights and stop signs, make illegal left turns, not signal, and ride against traffic, and this was just yesterday.

I see motorists do each and every one of these things every day. Every single day. So spare me your indignation.

only annoyance i ever have w/ cyclists is that we don't have bike lanes in my neighborhood so when there's a bicyclist ahead of you it sometimes takes a few minutes for there to be an opportunity to drive around them (tho they'll be pretty good and get out of the way when they can), but it's really a mild inconvenience in the scope of things and i've never felt endangered by them (or been afraid of endangering them). i would never cycle on the street in the philly area tho bc drivers here are terrible. the other day a driver made a U-turn in front of me from the right lane. that was only moments after they signaled left at an intersection and then instead of turning moved into said right lane right in front of me. i thought "this person is definitely getting into a car accident today and i am glad i survived this leg of that journey"

drivers because they begin driving like assholes when they're constantly freaking out about the obstacle course that has become modern city driving

I don't know how to break this to you, and I truly hope you're sitting down, but a large plurality of motorists, if not a solid majority, drive like assholes most of the time even in the absence of cyclists.

as bad as drivers are here tho ime bicyclists def blow red lights much more often than cars. motorcyclists don't tho.

Motorcyclists have to have a license, which can get points, and be taken away

Not a judgement on cyclists but just as one main thing a motorcycle operator has to think about at traffic lights that bicyclists don't

Also cameras can catch the plate on your motorcycle and you'll get a ticket in the mail

We could solve this problem by creating catapults that fling people to their destinations (or comically to their deaths)

The idea that drivers, who up until recently have all adhered to strictly by-the-book driving habits, have suddenly become more dangerous because "LOL WHAT DO I DO ABOUT ALL THESE DAMNED BICYCLERS" doesn't even rise to the level of "laughable." It's just stupid.

xxp To the extent that I and other cyclists I know blow red lights or stop signs, we do so for what is generally a rational reason -- e.g. not to get stuck at a light in front of or next to a line of impatient motorists who might do something dangerous. Cyclists are most unstable when starting from a complete stop, and it would be trivially easy for a motorist gunning it at a light to cause a real -- even fatal -- collision. But MOST cyclists, just like MOST motorists, don't do it as often as anyone thinks. Everyone's engaging in a whole lot of selection bias.

Here are a couple of links on this, from different countries and sources, all showing that a) there isn't as much red-light running going on by any class of road users as people think, and b) most of it is done by motorists:

https://averagejoecyclist.com/cyclists-running-red-lights-infographic/

http://irishcycle.com/2016/05/26/only-1-in-8-cyclists-run-red-lights-says-study-of-60-irish-junctions/

https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/09/01/people-on-bikes-should-obey-red-lights-but-that-wrc-story-was-still-wrong/

And not to get all Jack Nicholson "You want me on that wall" or anything, but there was a story I'm too lazy to dig for right now from recent years in which a group of about 20 cyclists, riding together, strictly followed every single traffic law including coming to complete stops at every signal and so forth, and it held up traffic in all directions for minutes at a time. Bikes are not cars, they shouldn't be subject to all the same rules and regulations despite sharing the same roads, and hopefully one day the law will catch up to that fact.

I just went and counted on Google Maps -- when I commute to work, by car or bike, over the 8 mile distance there are 36 stop signs or traffic lights. There is only one (1) that I do not stop for every time despite the fact that I'm often riding at 5:30 am and there's nobody coming.

OTOH, I ride with a bike camera for my own safety, and I can show you two downtown intersections where multiple motorists run the red lights every single time I'm stopped at them.

i'm v skeptical of that averagejoecyclist piece. cyclists could easily be jumping red lights more and causing fewer accidents. first you'd need to compare numbers of cars on the road to number of cyclists to get a real usable number and even then cyclist accidents would presumably be reported far less bc they end in serious injury or death far less often. to your last pt i don't disagree - i don't really care if bikers break the law, esp if they think doing so makes them safer. they're taking their lives into their hands and the worst thing they can do to me is scratch up my car.

two downtown intersections where multiple motorists run the red lights every single time I'm stopped at them.

where do you live???? or are you counting ppl driving the red bc they entered the intersection at the yellow? because i almost never see someone just blow a red light anywhere even in philly city proper and when they do i'm always shocked/horrified.

I take the kid cycling at a running track on weekly basis. You can get quite lost in the act of motion when there aren't many hazards to avoid. It is like therapy for me sometimes. I was talking to one of the hardcore cyclists there that organises it the other week and he didn't agree with my contro opinion proffered that Bradly Wiggins is a loathsome piece of shit. A lot of these hardcore cyclist types seem like nice people, but have decided never to talk about politics or cycling with them again.

I've watched cyclists blow red lights and stop signs, make illegal left turns, not signal, and ride against traffic, and this was just yesterday.

I see motorists do each and every one of these things every day. Every single day. So spare me your indignation.

― Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Sunday, April 23, 2017 11:11 AM (three minutes ago)

ugh! no on this line of cyclist tribalism. there's a genuinely complex argument to be had about the responsibility of operators of vehicles, whether motored or not. and nobody disputes that cars are terrible, and nobody disputes that cyclists deserve more rights and recourse against shitty drivers (last summer my friend was put into a coma by by a pickup truck driver playing pokemon! behind at the wheel), and nobody disputes that pedestrians are often assholes, too. but the insinuation that cyclists should be allowed exemption/overlook at safe rules of conduct - even if at the expense of pedestrian safety- is infuriating. the argument is based on 'well, drivers break the rules -- so why can't cyclists?" there's a pretty clear hierarchy of traffic in my head, and it goes: 1) ducklings, 2) babies, 3) children/elderly/infirm pedestrians, 4) regular pedestrians, 5) cyclists, 6) public transportation, 7) motorcycles/motorbikes, 8) private automobiles.

where do you live???? or are you counting ppl driving the red bc they entered the intersection at the yellow? because i almost never see someone just blow a red light anywhere even in philly city proper and when they do i'm always shocked/horrified.

I live in Cleveland, and no, I'm talking about people just straight up running the light. Or accelerating to TRY to be in the intersection at the yellow but being 2-3 seconds late. It isn't just you, though -- I have a friend who grew up in Massachusetts and he tells me he was shocked to see this from Cleveland (and other Ohio) drivers. He never saw it back east.

the argument is based on 'well, drivers break the rules -- so why can't cyclists?

That's not my argument at all. My argument is "Your time is better spent calling out bad behavior from the class of road users that kills nearly 40,000 people every year, as it will have a much larger effect on safety for everybody."

That said, every jurisdiction should allow the Denver Stop for cyclists.

i enjoy cycling about the city despite having to think about death a lot. the sort of red-light jumping I see is normally marginal and I'm not sure I've seen any instance of it that was really dangerous rather than just impudent. cycle lanes should of course be nowhere near roads but that is a way off in the uk at least. a lot of drivers do seem spooked by cycle lanes, undertaking, and struggle with allowing space, but that seems indefensible; driving in the city here is decadent and dangerous and being able to understand the traffic seems like the bare minimum requirement. the main unpredictable terror is ppl opening their doors into traffic.

being spooked by cycle lanes I get because there's an active human cyclist exposed next to you. the weird new trend I've seen in Orlando (which has become very bike friendly in most areas) is people getting spooked by side street parking as if the road hasn't already been designed to allow you enough space.

If you hold to your lane - you won't hit anybody. but if you swerve into mine to avoid a car that is nowhere near your path, you might kill ME!

we don't have bike lanes in my neighborhood so when there's a bicyclist ahead of you it sometimes takes a few minutes for there to be an opportunity to drive around them

this is one of my major beefs. If a car was holding up traffic by traveling at the speed of a bicycle, a cop would pull them over, and rightfully so. It causes congestion and generally makes city driving even less pleasant than it already is.

also, citing the examples of cities in other countries doesn't really work because the infrastructure of a city like, say, Copenhagen is designed to accommodate other modes of transportation. If I lived in Copenhagen, I definitely wouldn't have a car, and would definitely own a bicycle. But we're talking about mid-sized American cities where the average driver is not used to sharing the road with cyclists who aren't in a bike lane and who aren't held to the same standards as other motorists

The obvious solution is to tear down all American cities and rebuild them with bikes in mind.

The country should be one big bike w/ 50 spokes

novus ordo cyclorum

But we're talking about mid-sized American cities

Of course we are.

uh...

cities that are not especially bike-friendly and have yet to adapt to a rise in number of cyclists

becoming increasingly convinced that a solid 40% of dudes who want to become cops really just want to murder black men and/ or children and get away with it.

not controversial

prob not around here but i've gotten some push back on this from some of my lib friends

I think that opinion is controversial in the same way it seems controversial to assert that Trump is mentally ill; people really would prefer you not say that out loud because it is extremely troubling that it might be true

40% might be a little high applied across the entire country though

becoming increasingly convinced that a solid 40% of dudes who want to become cops really just want to murder black men and/ or children and get away with it.

― constitutional crises they fly at u face (will), Sunday, April 23, 2017 4:51 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Does that 40% include the roughly 30% of police who aren't white, or...?

also, not everyone can graduate high school and become a CEO or a "consultant." Civil service is one of few viable and respectable career choices for disadvantaged people who don't want to work at Burger King.

i will say no but the David Clarkes are def out there

not everyone can graduate high school and become a CEO or a "consultant." Civil service is one of few viable and respectable career choices for disadvantaged people who don't want to work at Burger King.

and i certainly would not suggest otherwise. but infiltration of law enforcement by actual white nationalists and those who are sympathetic is very real and insufficiently investigated

not sure I'm quite cynical enough to believe that. I would also hope that better surveillance in the form of dash cams and other technologies I wish would hurry up and be implemented could serve to quell the sort of infiltration you're talking about. Agreed we need fewer Dirty Harrys and more Serpicos

There are, on the other hand, a ton of law enforcement types who have come in directly from being infantry in the never-ending deployment of america's military and the instincts, training, and tendencies picked up in that realm, combined with the military surplus and remaindered weapons and armor police are buying leads to some fucked up shit

agree. and "40%" is ridiculously high. i was just tryin 2 b controversial. but i'd still say it's pretty fucking high.

something tells me this isn't going to be a priority over the next 4-8 years:
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

'Dogwhistling' is this season's 'privilege'

http://picturepress.co.uk/Television/images/One%20man%20and%20his%20dog.jpg

I think the overwhelming majority of plot synopses in blurbs and reviews are useless. Might not seem that controversial but so many people insist on using them and I hate it. I can remember a really tiny number of plot synopses that had the desired effect on me. It's not always that they're badly written but that very few plots sound interesting in synopsis.
What's important for a blurb or review is the basic subjects, settings and qualities.

tig notaro is not qualified to be a comedian

this is one of my major beefs. If a car was holding up traffic by traveling at the speed of a bicycle, a cop would pull them over, and rightfully so. It causes congestion and generally makes city driving even less pleasant than it already is.

Call the waaaaaaaahmbulance. Heaven forfend a motorist be inconvenienced for even a minute or two when CLEARLY HE'S IN A HURRY CAN'T YOU JUST GET OUT OF THE WAY?! I don't know where you live, but the laws in most states regarding cyclists on roads states that they cannot be stopped for impeding so long as they are traveling at a speed reasonable for an average cyclist and for road conditions. Practically speaking, that means as a cyclist you'd need to be smack in the middle of the lane going about 8 mph.

In most cities I've ever been in the US, the speed on most downtown urban roads is 25 mph. (Not that motorists, generally, obey speed limits.) Most urban cyclists I know average 14-15 mph, the more experienced ones average 18-20. (My speed on my commute in this morning averaged 13.2, but I've put on a lot of weight in recent months.) You really aren't being slowed down as much as you think you are. If you're in that much of a hurry, leave earlier.

Thank you for illustrating precisely the sort of sanctimonious siege mentality that makes me not want to inconvenience myself for cyclists

I'm in Pittsburgh via Birmingham btw

Most of my friends are cyclists and I don't think I know a single one who hasn't been in or narrowly avoided a terrible accident

14-15mph is pretty fast, not sure I've ever seen a cyclist (excepting messengers) going over 8mph outside of a major metropolitan city

But, see, here's the thing: I, in all honesty, couldn't care less what you do and don't want to do. If I am in front of you, I have the legal right of way, and you will either ride behind me until you can safely pass me, or take another route. Just as you would with any other vehicle, be it a bicycle, another car, a bus, the Batmobile or a giant hamster ball. That's how the rules of the road work throughout the US -- the person ahead of you has the right of way until you can safely pass them. (I don't know about PGH or Pa. generally, but in Ohio you're allowed to cross a double yellow line to pass a cyclist provided the way ahead of you is clear and you don't have to exceed the speed limit to do so.)

Most of my friends are cyclists and I don't think I know a single one who hasn't been in or narrowly avoided a terrible accident

I personally know four who have been hit in the last two years. Two were hit by motorists making illegal left turns; one required shoulder surgery, the other knee surgery. One got off with just minor contusions. One was rear-ended at 65 mph and spent 10 weeks in a coma and had to learn to walk again this year.

Additionally, two people I knew only through other friends were killed when their group of five was plowed into by a pickup truck making a left who did not yield to them as they came towards him.

These were all the fault of motorists who also did not want to be inconvenienced.

14-15mph is pretty fast, not sure I've ever seen a cyclist (excepting messengers) going over 8mph outside of a major metropolitan city

It really isn't. I pulled 14mph for a solid 50-block stretch downtown this morning.

the tv show fargo is mostly pretty bad

I agree with u

I mean here's basically how I break it down to an extent: I ride in a manner that gets me where I'm going as efficiently as possible, and try when possible to make it easy for motorists to legally pass me. But if I need to take the lane for my safety, I'm taking it. At worst, I might delay you from your preferred speed for 10-15 seconds. At worst, you might kill me. So cool your jets.

Might as well start a new thread if this one is going to become bikes vs cars vs peds.

imo both are disgusting symptoms of a lack of good public transportation

I just want to walk fewer than two blocks to a transportation stop and then be able to ride to within two blocks of my place of work, without moving to a larger city. Make it happen, politicians!!

ULTIMATE DEATHMATCH - Drivers vs Cyclists vs Motorcyclists (vs Peda-cab drivers)

My hatred of cyclists can be traced to an exact moment.

I was taking a walk on the Brooklyn Bridge and this African-American family was standing in the bike lane so they could take a photo on what anyone would agree is one of New York's most popular and iconic of tourist sites. A white cyclist was BARRELING down the decline and just starts yelling "NO!" at them, like he was scolding a dog, without slowing down. Like it just put a sharp focus the fucking entitlement of these people.