2008 Primaries Thread 3: The Rejecting and Denouncening

At the same time, in reference to Mr. Que's post, I do think that Bill Clinton's presidency is relevant to discussion when Hillary considers her years as First Lady as part of her many years of foreign-policy experience.

who? xxp

re: marshall: well i think his ambulance chasing IS god's work.

he's got a whole crew of people working for him now, most of the scandal stuff is now on the 'muckraker' sub-site. their shtick seems to be: don't let anything go by, ever. i mean every day there's a rundown of whatever gruesome stuff came out of dana perino's mouth. it is fatiguing but they're going for total reliability, i think.

xps i thought gravel did that and joined the greens like two weeks ago

well the level of minutia contained in tpms scandal reporting is unequaled anywhere - its a unique product doing important work that actually has an impact outside of the blogosphere

i would vote for HRC if she got the nom, i guess, though i'd feel like it was just contributing to the continued flatlining so maybe i'd just write in barack.

http://barelybad.com/images/quayle.gif

Despite all of the other things I disagree with, a huge accomplishment of Bill Clinton's presidency was to change the perception that Democrats can't handle the economy. Which has knock-on effects years and decades later for the entire party.

Gavin, why would I explain that? It's a bizarre premise. But forgive me if I'm uninterested in what some Connecticut congressperson spent at a hotel bar.

My mom (who hates HRC) started out LOVING Michelle Obama, then she got spun by 'proud of America' comments being inappropriate for someone who had a free ride at an Ivy League school and therefore has no right to ever get angry at or disappointed in this notional "America". This pisses me off because my opinion is virtually identical to MO's in this respect and I don't cop this shit off Mom for it. Of course to my mom MO is also 'angry' and shouldn't be taking her girls to that scary church, so it just gets better...

I do try to reframe it for her. Like MO, I got a free ride to a very good school after getting the best of my town's public schools. When I arrived I found a wide social gulf between people who'd grown up in academic/wealthy families and therefore knew how to operate in a campus setting, as opposed to the public school students who didn't know the form for seminars/lectures/tutorials and found it hard to fit in or slighted for not knowing about things like brie. I explained this to my mom and she said "but that's social, not racial," as I banged my head against wall 4000 miles away.

telecom deregulations and Hilarycare aside, i think it's all relative--i don't see how you could possibly think Clinton was an awful President considering who is in office at the moment. Clinton may have done some dumb and harmful things but Bush has been far far worse, and McCain would be more of the same.

is anyone actually disputing that point

Alfred and Shakey Mo seem to think Clinton was the devil

But no one seems to think Bush/McCain is better. I honestly don't mean to do the internet-condescension thing here, but we can take issue with the actions of a so-called "liberal" without necessarily embracing their conservative opponents. No cognitive dissonance necessary.

Many here seem to be imagining that it's possible for the occupant of the most powerful office on earth to not make painful compromises and enact some questionable policies. And if that (completely illusory) possibility recedes they'll hand that office to John "Fucking" McCain.

not saying that Hoos--just saying, all things considered Clinton was not that bad

Tracer you're making me feel like Morbs here.

a huge accomplishment of Bill Clinton's presidency was to change the perception that Democrats can't handle the economy

But what good is this if they did it by selling out to neoliberal orthodoxy that's destroying the working and middle classes? They just tow the rightwing line on the economy, with maybe fewer tax cuts for the rich. This is like saying Hillary voting for the war changes the perception that Dems can't be strong on defense.

And now for a little light relief.

Twisted Sister want Barack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgkrX-NSt6Q

It's easy to be above it all, HOOS.

Gavin dude do you really want to get into this?

I don't know, is that a threat?

Tracer I am certainly not imagining that a President makes NO COMPROMISES or he is EVIL FOR ALL TIME, but I am suggesting that some of Clinton's compromises were morally specious and harmful to certain segments of our society. I'd like to think that someone who came from a position slightly more to the left would stand a bit firmer on the issues I pointed out, and that an O win would have some positive coattail effects that would make compromises to the right less necessary.

i'd like to continue this but i'm out for a bit

It's interesting that in both cases you are more interested in politics as "perception" than as real people making decisions -- including unethical and illegal ones -- that have concrete effects.

I guess you can argue that Clinton "had to" gut welfare or bomb other countries, but if he made those decisions against his will, then it's a failing of his presidency.

Er no Gavin I was just like, do either of us really have the expertise to debate the past and present effects of Bill Clinton's economic policies? Rest assured I hated plenty of it.

"I don't understand why in this industry of politics, I am an airhead," says Sen. John McCain's daughter on a recent Sunday at the Enchantment Resort in Sedona, Ariz., not far from the McCain family's weekend home. She occasionally strokes the blond ponytail that lies over her shoulder like a mink stole. "I'm so sick of being called dumb because I like, you know, movies and music and fashion."

"She's really articulate," says her friend and fellow "blogette" Heather Brand, who's sitting nearby.

"Thanks!" McCain says with a joyful giggle.

why in this industry of politics

Enchantment Resort

Alfred and Shakey Mo seem to think Clinton was the devil

Someone who campaigned on "change" and then revealed himself to be a "triangulating" bastard who blithely sought to make Reagan-Bush dreams a reality is pretty close to Beelzebub in my book.

As I've said here and other threads, I don't think much of the last 50 years of American history, and YES this period includes Dubya, maybe more so.

"She's really articulate" (for a blond chick)

"superdelegate primary" ideas floating around, from politico:

Here, for example, is one idea for adding a big democratic dose of clarity, transparency and accountability to the superdelegate dilemma: Hold a superconvention.

Assuming neither Barack Obama nor Hillary Rodham Clinton can clinch a decisive advantage in pledged delegates once the voting is done in June, let’s convene a special summit of superdelegates around July 4 in Philadelphia (a little obvious symbolism is in order here). Get them off the phone and out of the proverbial smoke-filled rooms — and into full public view for the rest of the party.

To maximize this meeting's legitimacy, tap Al Gore — the party’s most senior and respected unaligned superdelegate — as chairman. Invite Obama and Clinton to give a full pitch as to why he or she is the best nominee for the party. Then, much like the individual state caucuses, give committed superdelegates an opportunity to argue for their candidate — and engage their opponents in free-flowing debate. Finally, at a predetermined endpoint, ask each superdelegate to choose sides and record their votes.

To maximize this meeting's transparency, broadcast the proceedings on C-SPAN and webcast them on the Democratic National Committee site so every Democrat can watch. What better way to turn closed and exclusive lemons into open and accessible lemonade — and allow average Democrats who feel shut out to tune into this decisive process.

yah they should do that except july 4th is too late - do it right after the last primary and get on w/the mccain killin

how does that get them off the phone & out of smoke filled rooms before july 4 in philadelphia? xp

George Packer:

I don’t have an answer for this manufactured hysteria, which reminds me of nothing so much as two small children left unsupervised in a room. Blame it on the media (I do), blame it on the campaigns (them, too), blame it on all of us—on a political culture that requires trivial combat to feel alive (plausible; needs more reflection). But before you decide that there has never been a smaller, meaner, dirtier, lower, more dishonest Presidential campaign, pour yourself a drink and read a history of the 1988 race. Or the one in 1972. Or 1968. Or 1952. Or 1864. Or 1828. And then try to calm down.

argh just send hrc back to the senate so obama has time to hardson mccain

"But before you decide that there has never been a smaller, meaner, dirtier, lower, more dishonest Presidential campaign, pour yourself a drink and read a history of the 1988 race. Or the one in 1972. Or 1968. Or 1952. Or 1864. Or 1828. And then try to calm down."

truthbomb

i'm not really sure if this will even come down to a superdelegate primary. i'm thinking that after the last contest there's just gonna be a big chunk of supers flocking to obama, to such an extent that it won't be possible for hillary to stay in.

Someone who campaigned on "change" and then revealed himself to be a "triangulating" bastard who blithely sought to make Reagan-Bush dreams a reality is pretty close to Beelzebub in my book.

As I've said here and other threads, I don't think much of the last 50 years of American history, and YES this period includes Dubya, maybe more so.

^^^cosign. To be clear I rate the last few presidencies this way:

1) Clinton I - fair to middling. tries to do a handful of decent things, fucks them up, throws in the towel.
2) Clinton II - an embarassment
3) Dubya I - OMG WE ARE FUCKED
4) Dubya II - LET THE FUCKENING CONTINUE

so there's a scale of shittiness there.

what i don't understand is why it isn't personally or publicly embarrassing for three senators to not do their supposedly important jobs for like a whole year

yea i know right

the idea that we should give clinton as pass bc gwb is so awful is sort of bizarre to me

a pass

ass pass

The idea that now is the time to go over the failings of the Clinton presidency is equally bizarre

I mean yeah there are lessons to learn I guess and there's no benefit in sugarcoating him but there's only so much time in the day

what i don't understand is why it isn't personally or publicly embarrassing for three senators to not do their supposedly important jobs for like a whole year

if the election process actually worked and focused on substantive issues it would be a worthy sacrifice.

If Clinton is using her First Lady experience as an integral part of her argument to voters, that she has walked in the corridors of power and knows where the restrooms are, whatever -- then I think it is legitimate to assess the accomplishments of the Clinton administration, sure.

yes

The idea that now is the time to go over the failings of the Clinton presidency is equally bizarre

i disagree. there's a major presidential candidate running right now who calls frequently on the merits that administration as a reason for her capacity to govern.

*of that administration

If Clinton is using her First Lady experience as an integral part of her argument to voters, that she has walked in the corridors of power and knows where the restrooms are, whatever -- then I think it is legitimate to assess the accomplishments of the Clinton administration, sure.

yea exactly. sorry didn't read this before i posted