Nathan Barley comes to TV

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Less adequate by what criteria?

Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Monday, 21 March 2005 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

genetic. non-hipsters need to be supervised and if possible reformed.

N_RQ, Monday, 21 March 2005 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Man! I can't believe I missed it. :-(

I rushed home early from the party in Shoreditch and everything. And now I'll never know how it ended...

Masonic Cathedral (kate), Monday, 21 March 2005 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I missed episode 5, stevem.

I missed episodes 2 and 4, too, but downloaded them.

RJG (RJG), Monday, 21 March 2005 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Yo! Momus! Preacher man!

Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 21 March 2005 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's the kind of idiot comment that's made momus an interweb legend.

The trouble is, merchant bankers are in a way the model consumers, early adopters, affluent, working hard on being original, etc. It's impossible to dismiss them, because the general populace will probably be doing versions of the things the merchant bankers are doing a few years down the line. Things merchant bankers were seen doing in NB -- talking loudly on their cellphones in public places, for instance -- are already universals

N_RQ, Monday, 21 March 2005 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Less adequate by what criteria?

The Nathan Barley series shows this quite well, I think: you can't win when you hate a group of people who are more affluent than you, more positive than you, early adopters, and creative. The scene of Dan playing "cock muff bumhole" or gambling on Russian tramps shows that "the Idiots" have powerful memes on their side. When Dan wants to attack them, he'll either see his counter-memes enlisted and recruited by the Idiots, or he'll fail to come up with anything as interesting (see his pathetic attempt to dismiss 15Peter20). He ends up joining them, but half-heartedly. They win. His half-hearted passive aggression is puritan, uncreative, dour and doesn't stop him becoming just as pathetic as they are.

As for Henry's merchant bankers point, if only that were the case. If only society were really structured in such a way that we would all become as rich as merchant bankers are now. Surely the point is not that merchant bankers ought to remain a universal hate object just like hipsters (which seems to be Henry's thinking). The point is that there shouldn't be class divisions impossible to cross. Major cataclysms aside, it seems likely that developed nations will continue to double their wealth every few decades. People will advance further into consumer culture, mediation culture, gizmo-friendliness... all the things that we deride the Idiots for. We should work to ensure that these things are available to as many people as possible, not work to discredit them as inherently evil or elitist.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:13 (twenty-one years ago)

consumer culture, mediation culture, gizmo-friendliness

I should add "kidulthood" and "ludic behaviour", two tendencies NB is also satirizing with its scenes of hipsters riding around on tiny, brightly-coloured tractors. It is, inchallah, the fate of all advanced peoples to become ludic kidults.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

cf. penultimate episode of the prisoner with mcgoohan and mckern riding about in toy cars, on seesaws, etc. "even as a child there is something in your brain that is a puzzlement."

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

And by the way, I think I only have the perspective Henry is calling "idiot comment" because I was able to live in cities like New York and Tokyo. I think if I'd stayed in London I would certainly have Henry's kneejerk resentment: this fixed idea that you attack anyone who's going places. It's a very good argument for getting out of London. I blame low-flying clouds and the legacy of the puritans, personally. I don't know how Shakespeare avoided it. Probably by reading all that Italian stuff.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:26 (twenty-one years ago)

The scene of Dan playing "cock muff bumhole" or gambling on Russian tramps shows that "the Idiots" have powerful memes on their side.

No, it shows that Dan is too weak to resist trying to join in and get acceptance. If Claire - or, say, the receptionist - had been playing cock muff bumhole too, you might have had a point.

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't like the fact that this has given TV critics an excuse to crow about "The Idiots have won, which is a good thing." They won't be saying that after the election.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Qutie frankly, the vision of people riding around the streets of London on tiny, brightly-coloured toy tractors is not only way to the left of anything New Labour are likely to endorese, it makes Ken Livingstone's wildest traffic-taming schemes look like Fordism.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

it isn't just the actual gizmos and wealth that NB is sneering at, though, momus: it's the use to which they put their enviable assets that is the problem. if the hipsters really are superior beings, they need to demonstrate it, not by simply being front-rank consumers but by, y'know, creating things, having the occasional thought. i don't see how you can enjoy the show if you think 15peter is a good egg or that sugar rape looks like an engrossing read.

N_RQ, Monday, 21 March 2005 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

The kind of system I want to live in, and the kind I think we're inevitably progressing towards (again inchallah) is one which does require there to be a kind of license to ponce. That license must be as freely available to the Bangladeshis of Brick Lane as the slumming Home Counties debs. It requires a huge amount of over-production -- of memes, not goods. (From an ecological point of view, 15Peter20, recycling his own urine, is a saint compared to Damian Hirst.) It requires a whole ecosystem of magazines like Sugarape, and independent film makers. Good ones, bad ones, salient ones, absurd ones. It's the world Josef Beuys talked about when he said "Everyone is an artist".

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

If Claire - or, say, the receptionist - had been playing cock muff bumhole too, you might have had a point.

Well, does the future belong to Claire? Let's see, she's from oop north and she's into gritty social realism. That means exposing children to grim realities like heroin addiction, and turning it into entertainment which, inexplicably, everyone down south finds funny. So let's say Claire wins, gets her series. She joins the media elite. She does eventually start doing coke, you know. And that Tiny Tim-type junky gets a record contract and becomes a yuppie too.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

This is the Rortian line, of course - "I have no objection to yuppies, as long as everyone gets to be one." But Rorty continues "they have become very greedy and successful at halting social mobility and denying other people access to that wealth."

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that Claire isn't the innocent she first appeared. But she is self-powered. The incidents with Dan are instances of him falling, but Claire jumps, given the opportunity.

That license must be as freely available to the Bangladeshis of Brick Lane as the slumming Home Counties debs.

Yeees, but relying on the free market (or Daddy's money as it is more commonly known) isn't actually going to do much about that.

"Cock Muff Bumhole" isn't much of an example of a powerful meme, anyway: the only originality is a thin layer of "it's not good because it's rude, it's good because it looks like it's good because it's rude", which someone told them once, and they scribbled down (after looking at an older boy for reassurance) in their catechism of "why it's all right to be us".

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

The people who infuriate me are the ones who kick the ladder away. This seems to be the implication of Why I Don't Love Richard Florida by Karrie Jacobs in Metroplis magazine. Karrie says:

"Florida has taken something qualitative and turned it into something quantitative. That's what social scientists do. It's their special form of creativity. But in his argument in favor of economic development based on the arts and on businesses favored by the kind of people who enjoy the arts, he seems to have exaggerated either the size or the creativity of his Creative Class. I don't have any more faith in the prevalence of Florida's class than I do in the so-called values voters who cropped up after the elections. Both groups exist in nature but have been somewhat inflated for the sake of argument.

"These days every time I walk down, say, Rivington Street, on Manhattan's Lower East Side, or Fifth Avenue, in Brooklyn's Park Slope, I notice how the distinctions between the hip places are beginning to blur. One cool business district looks pretty much like the next, just the way one suburban mall looks pretty much like the next. And once you start thinking about creativity in terms of class, hipness as a monoculture seems like the inevitable outcome."

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you believe it's a valuable and/or neccessary thing to be uncertain about what you are doing, Momus?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

So essentially, Momus, you see NB not as satire but as a fictionalised account (highly exaggerated, bien sûr) of how the world really should be? I'm in favour of a right to ponce, but quite apart from whether hipsterism addresses the real problems of poverty, the environment etc. (and you seem to think it does), I'm not sure total immersion in hipsterism actually produces any good art, design, fashion etc. It tends towards reductio ad absurdam. Hipsterism is a little like sentimentalism - something you need to dip your toe into once in a while but also keep your distance from.

Stenton Jones, Monday, 21 March 2005 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The problem I see w/the idea of a "right to ponce" is that, you know, someone has to make stuff, and keep stuff working?

Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

We have racist robots for that!

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Just had a thought while picking my nose (at the basin, admiring my new Sherlock Holmes-as-futuristic-Japanese-carpenter look): one thing I really appreciated about NB is its moral ambivalence. What nauseated me about Lost In Translation was the way it ranged COGs -- centres of goodness, in Scriptwriting 101 lingo -- against Evil Media Folk (the ditzy actress, the John Ribisi character who wears the same watch as I do, but is a villain!). I hate that sort of "moral clarity", especially when it's accompanied by schmaltzy music and earnest encomia to the joys of parenthood.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

haha, am I alone in doubting that 'but' there? You are British, living abroad and you wear an eyepatch = you are already a villain, almost certainly an evil mastermind.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

kevin shields is schmaltzy now?

N_RQ, Monday, 21 March 2005 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Unfortunately, the closing (hospital bed) section of NB, as with the section in Clockwork Orange which it ripped off, would suggest to me that Morris isn't so much advocating Freedom To Ponce as much as that dreaded old camouflage of the Right: "Conservative Christian Anarchism."

Dennis Potter did it so much better in Blue Remembered Hills.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 21 March 2005 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Scenes of Dan giving in doesn't mean that the idiots have something good going -- they're playing fucking "rock, paper, scissors" with dirty words in! They're watching the destitute injure themselves for money! Dan seems repulsed every time he participates, because he's painted himself into a corner.

Dan was skilled, but not marketable anywhere outside of his niche at SugarApe. He could probably go get an entry-level job elsewhere but he's doing fairly well, so he'd rather play the game and flog himself for it.

mike h. (mike h.), Monday, 21 March 2005 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

"It's just a simple matter of comparison"

That scene with the idiots discussing NB's column, reminded me of some of the Spinal Tapp moments.

Ste (Fuzzy), Monday, 21 March 2005 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

(Here's the Japanese-carpenter-meets-Sherlock-Holmes look I mentioned above, in case anyone's taking fashion notes.)

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 March 2005 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

"I blame ... the legacy of the puritans, personally. I don't know how Shakespeare avoided it"

erm by carefully dying before the puritans turned up?

mark s (mark s), Monday, 21 March 2005 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't believe this is over already, it was just getting good! six shows is a season, wtf.

mark p (Mark P), Monday, 21 March 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Six shows is your standard British comedy series length.

caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 21 March 2005 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Fashion Note Noted: You've been Bobo-ified.

J.D. Wick (jdw), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

i know caitlin, doesn't make it any less wtf.

mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 02:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Nathan Barely, more like.

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 02:54 (twenty-one years ago)

That is fucking gorgeous.

Masked Gazza, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 03:53 (twenty-one years ago)

lollerin & the wallerin

fcussen (Burger), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 04:03 (twenty-one years ago)

He mentioned how Miuccia Prada once memorably wore her diamond necklace inside out to show off the backs of the stones. "That was subversive," Mr. Panichgul said.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahling, that's exactly how I was wearing my cape!

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

that Flash thing is remarkable - who did it? and how they'd put it together so quickly? and whyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Sven Bastard (blueski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:51 (twenty-one years ago)

That Flash animation (flanimation? animash?) pretty much sums up the whole sorry affair perfectly. Next!

Huey (Huey), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it Morris getting his auto-criticism in first?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:53 (twenty-one years ago)

That appears to be some ghostly remnant of a Goodies fansite. So far, so SOTCAA.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Any criticism which revolves around ratings disappointments completely fails to move me, I'm afraid. If Nathan Barley didn't represent the people, dissolve the people and elect a new one.

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

hard to tell if they watched the whole series or not when making the Flash piece - if so then that's 'funny'

Sven Bastard (blueski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 11:13 (twenty-one years ago)

It's the work of one Alan Strang. A lot of it is in jokes from the Cook'd and Bomb'd debate about the show, which is my first experience of comedy forum types and, just, wow.

A / F#m / Bm / D (Lynskey), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that a good wow or a bad wow? Unfortunately I used to lurk around the comedy forums so much that I still find it hard to separate my own reactions to shows like this from the terms in which I imagine that crowd will be discussing it. My default position ends up being one of prickly defensiveness. I suspect the chatter in here has been a bit more illuminating than C&B but maybe not.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Just, wow. I'd heard about Comedy Forums before but not seen it first hand. It's not a bad discussion per se but the contingent that seems to want him to do another 14,235 series of the Day Today are really fist biting to read. Seeing as Barley is at worst a passable work, the venom present is really something and more based on their glorious hero and leader scandalously letting them down rather than the program itself.

A / F#m / Bm / D (Lynskey), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 13:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I think perhaps another thing that always bothered me about those forums (some of which are now defunct, I think) is that they were the discussion boards of websites which pretty clearly had a critical stance on certain things.

There'd be some chunk of editorial up on the front page dissecting I'm Alan Partridge or something and all subsequent chatter would be in the shadow of that. Even if the debate which followed was broadly dissenting wrt the head article there'd always be this funny feeling that..."No, you don't really get it, do you?"

I dunno, I'm probably projecting a bit but it did make me quite cross and I gave up on them.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 13:35 (twenty-one years ago)

the Flash thing is SO well done and SO thoughtful - enough to include the Friday Night Project diss afterwards and the collapse of the 4 logo - a broader swipe at C4 not just NB's supposed 'failings' - which makes me wonder how seriously it is intended as an insult as opposed to just a great way to showcase skills to target audience i.e. 'please employ me zeppotron or whatever you've mutated into'

Sven Bastard (blueski), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)


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