A New Thread fot the Current Israel/Palestine/Lebanon mess

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If the UN pulls its people out I'd hardly call that a tiny benefit if you're a country intent on causing maximum pain to a country's whole infrastructure.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:29 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think that would even happen if Israel openly declared war on the UN.

starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

conspiracy theory my ass, unless you really believe american warships have arabic marking painted on them.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:34 (nineteen years ago)

yawn

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:47 (nineteen years ago)

Kofi Annan has called it 'apparently deliberate', this isn't some conspiracy theorist bullshit.

Duncs (Seuss 2005), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:49 (nineteen years ago)

xpost - yawn at this, then.

Report: U.N. observers' calls unheeded

By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press WriterWed Jul 26, 6:19 PM ET

U.N. observers in Lebanon telephoned the Israeli military 10 times in six hours to ask it to stop shelling near their position before an attack killed four observers and sparked international anger with Israel, U.N. officials said Wednesday.

The U.N. observation post near Khiam came under close Israeli fire 21 times Tuesday — including 12 hits within 100 yards and five direct hits from 1:20 p.m. until the peacekeepers' post was destroyed at 7:30 p.m., Jane Lute, assistant secretary-general for peacekeeping, told the U.N. Security Council in New York.

U.N. officials said Hezbollah militants had been operating in the area of the post near the eastern end of the border with Israel, a routine tactic to prevent Israel from attacking them.

"We did repeatedly in recent days say (to Israel) that this was an exposed position, that Hezbollah militants were 500 meters (yards) away shielding themselves near U.N. workers and civilians," U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland said. "That's why it is so inexplicable that what happened happened."

Israeli officials had told the United Nations that the bombing around the base was part of an "an aerial preparation for a ground operation," said the senior official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Officials in the outpost called the Israeli army 10 times during those six hours, and each time an army official promised to have the bombing stopped, according to a preliminary U.N. report on the incident, which was shown to an Associated Press reporter on Wednesday.

Once it became clear those pleas were being ignored, the force's commander sought the involvement of top officials in New York, a senior U.N. official in New York said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation of the incident was not yet complete.

U.N. Deputy Secretary-General Mark Malloch Brown and Lute herself then made several calls to Israel's U.N. mission "reiterating these protests and calling for an abatement of the shelling," Lute said.

The bombing put Israel on the defensive two weeks into its campaign against Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed "deep regret" for the deaths and dismay over U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's accusation that the attack was "apparently deliberate."

Olmert told Annan in a phone call Wednesday that the attack was inadvertent and he promised a "thorough investigation," his office said in a statement.

"It's inconceivable for the U.N. to define an error as an apparently deliberate action," Olmert said.

China called for an Israeli apology and asked the U.N. Security Council to condemn the bombing — which killed one of its citizens — and demand Israel stop attacking U.N. positions and personnel.

"For China and for others, we condemn this because I think any attack on the United Nations positions and the United Nations personnel is inexcusable and unacceptable," China's U.N. Ambassador Wang Guangya said.

Austria and Finland, both of which also lost citizens in the attack, condemned the bombing, with Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja calling it "truly tragic." The fourth victim was Canadian.

"These so-called precision attacks seem to be mainly targeting everyone else except the Hezbollah," Tuomioja said. "The longer this continues, the more likely it is that there will be more similar victims."

White House spokesman Tony Snow described the strike as a "horrible thing," but said Israel was behaving responsibly in its aftermath.

"They'll be completely transparent in the way they conduct the investigation," Snow said. "And I think that's the appropriate way to proceed."

U.N. officials said the observation position was well marked. A picture the world body released Wednesday showed the three-story building was painted white with the letters "U.N." emblazoned in large black letters on all sides, and a light blue U.N. flag hung from a nearby flagpole that was roughly 50 feet high. Witnesses said the building, which was surrounded by concrete blast walls and barbed wire, also had the letters U.N. painted on the roof and it was illuminated by floodlights at night.

During the shelling, the observers took refuge in a bomb shelter designed to withstand a strike by a 155mm artillery shell, U.N. officials said. The bunker collapsed in the attack, and the extent of the damage suggests it was hit with a large bomb, said Brig. Gen. J.P. Nehra, the deputy force commander for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

"We can only say the destruction of the bunker was quite devastating, of the kind that aerial bombs can achieve. The ones of the very heavy variety," he said.

After the blast, Israel agreed to give UNIFIL safe passage for two armored personnel carriers to evacuate the position, Lute said. They arrived at 9:30 p.m. "and found the shelter collapsed and major damage to the rest of the position," she said.

Despite negotiating safe passage, those APCs also came under Israeli attack, she said, adding that the attacks continued Wednesday when an artillery round hit about 10 yards from UNIFIL headquarters in the town of Naqoura.

Since fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants began two weeks ago, there have been several dozen incidents of firing close to U.N. peacekeepers and observers, including direct hits on nine positions, some of them repeatedly, a U.N. official said. As a result of these attacks, 12 U.N. personnel have been killed or injured, U.N. officials said.

During an Israeli offensive against Lebanon in 1996, artillery blasted a U.N. base at Qana in southern Lebanon, killing more than 100 civilians taking refuge with the peacekeepers.

The U.N. mission, which has nearly 2,000 military personnel and more than 300 civilians, is to patrol the border line, known as the Blue Line, drawn by the United Nations after Israel withdrew troops from south Lebanon in 2000 and ended an 18-year occupation.

On Wednesday, dovish lawmaker Ran Cohen, a colonel in the Israeli army reserves, said that from his experience in Lebanon, it was quite possible to make such a mistake.

"I have not even the slightest doubt that we're talking here about a mistake, technical or otherwise. The army, as long as I've known it and I'm fairly critical, never wants to hit UNIFIL forces," Cohen said.

___

Associated Press reporter Nick Wadhams contributed to this report from the United Nations.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:50 (nineteen years ago)

when fucking china of all countries has the moral high ground on you, perhaps it's time to change course.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

So they had SIX HOURS of direct warning?

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, that makes sense, to leave a bunker for the safety of the surrounding countryside.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:56 (nineteen years ago)

If by "direct warning" you mean "totally unexpected shelling" yes, Squirrel_police

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:59 (nineteen years ago)

The 1996 incident involved artillery, which is obviously less accurate than aerial bombs, and Hezbollah was firing rockets from a few hundred meters away from the site.

Not that that exonerates Israel of this last bombing, but they're two totally different things. I don't see them as establishing a pattern of Israel targeting the U.N.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 00:59 (nineteen years ago)

Kofi Annan has also since retracted his statement that it was apparently deliberate.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:00 (nineteen years ago)

artillery isn't entirely inaccurate, tho yeah it's not the kind of thing you'd use for accuracy. i highlighted that passage not to "show a pattern" per se.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry, I've just been reading appellate court opinions for the last two hours and I'm taking on their parlance.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:02 (nineteen years ago)

>If by "direct warning" you mean "totally unexpected shelling"
>yes, Squirrel_police

Yep, I guess I didn't think it through. Silly me.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

i just think the more that is revealed about this, the more indefensible it becomes to not blame the idf.

unless you're a fuckin' nut like the squirrel policeman.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:04 (nineteen years ago)

I blame the IDF for this whole bombing campaign.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

haha. by the way, I totally disagree with approximately 99.99% of what you say, S_P, but I'm sorry for calling you a dipshit.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:06 (nineteen years ago)

And I guess even if the U.N. thing wasn't on purpose, you could probably argue that it was "criminally negligent" or something (bah, courtspeak again).

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:07 (nineteen years ago)

I blame the IDF for this whole [1] bombing campaign

[1] Justifiable.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

i won't apologize for calling squirrel police a dipshit. squirrel police, you're a dipshit.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:10 (nineteen years ago)

The 1996 U.N. thing was something I hadn't thought about for quite a long time, though I now remember it pretty well. The thought got me a-googlin, which led me to this:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/17/lebanon.israel/10am/index.html

Pretty entertaining for deja-vu value.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost)
Ouch, that hurt. Are we still on for lunch tommorow?

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

i'm having pork.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:13 (nineteen years ago)

I was talking to a friend about this, who brought up some okay counterpoints (doesn't Hezbollah gather around UN buildings for shielding, etc.) and it is hilarious how this AP article COMPLETELY SHOOTS DOWN ALL OF THOSE POINTS.

S_P, I would hardly call "oh, don't worry, we're going to stop the bombing, we won't hit you" advanced warning.

Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:15 (nineteen years ago)

jessie don't you know the ap is full of anti-semites too!?!?!?!?!??

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

No, actually it's EUROPE that's full of anti-semites. This
has been clear for at LEAST 60 years now.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:23 (nineteen years ago)

what about the jewish europeans?

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

What, you mean the few that survived?

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

BTW, I totally retract what I said about the bombing of the
UN personnel. It looks like a totally inexcusable act on the
part of the Israelis. The more I read about it, the angrier
I feel that the Israelis allowed this to happen. There should be
some real repercussions for this.

It's a really sad and cruel that these people were murdered.
But I think this incident, no matter how tragic, is peripheral
to the larger issues at hand.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

xpost - it probably ain't peripheral to the people who are dead.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:32 (nineteen years ago)

No, actually it's EUROPE that's full of anti-semites.

Don't go into hysterics.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

(xpost)
Really? Because if they are dead it seems to me they are
probably totally noncognizant of worldly affairs.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

you really are a dipshit.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 01:39 (nineteen years ago)

I'm inclined to believe that the IDF attack on UN positions is deliberate, but not entirely inappropriate. The location of the UN outposts, whether or not they are strategially located, provides some modicum of cover for Hizballah forces. It's not like Hizballah has never positioned themselves between innocent bystanders to draw Israeli fire. I am not saying that the deaths of the UNIFIL troops is excusable, I just want to point out that the mere presence of the UN in a time of war provides Hizballah with an opportunity to exploit the trigger-happy nature of the IDF.

Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)

U.N. officials said Hezbollah militants had been operating in the area of the post near the eastern end of the border with Israel, a routine tactic to prevent Israel from attacking them.

"We did repeatedly in recent days say (to Israel) that this was an exposed position, that Hezbollah militants were 500 meters (yards) away shielding themselves near U.N. workers and civilians," U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland said. "That's why it is so inexplicable that what happened happened."

Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:41 (nineteen years ago)

Hmm. So does that make everyone here right?

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:48 (nineteen years ago)

I'm confused as to the meaning of the word "exposed" w/r/t the UN observation post. I would think that the UN would have a vested interest in removing their people from a situation where they provide inadvertant cover to Hizballah. Again, I am not saying that what Israel did was excusable -- I think it was horrible -- but that I can understand why it happened.

Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 02:53 (nineteen years ago)

I'm a little confused about that quote myself. It's like he's saying "We told Israel that we knew there was a strong likelihood that this would happen, which is why it's inexplicable that it happened."

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:14 (nineteen years ago)

500 meters isn't all that close.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:19 (nineteen years ago)

for instance

5 and 1/2 football fields away, for us dumb americans.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:22 (nineteen years ago)

another interesting thing i found from that blog: this time it ain't just kids. the notorious anti-semites at reuters published those.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)

500 meters is not all that close. But the players in this war are not static, either. How long would it take you to run the length of 5 and 1/2 football fields?

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is what purpose does UNIFIL still serve by being in Souther Lebanon at this point? Clearly there is no more peace to keep. The border is full of holes punched by the IAF and Israeli ground forces. Supply lines are cut that would allow UNIFIL to provide humanitarian relief (which I am not sure is part of UNIFIL's mandate). It seems that UN brass is well aware of the position that they find themselves in, yet is unwilling (or unable?) to place their troops out of harms way.

Dan Floss (Dan Floss), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:36 (nineteen years ago)

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is what purpose does UNIFIL still serve by being in Souther Lebanon at this point?

I think what I'm trying very hard to understand is why you think that - barring any orders from the UN to leave, not to mention that movement during a battle only encourages you to be fired upon, not to mention that there aren't any fuckin' roads in that part of lebanon any more - the UNIFIL soldiers and civilians have any choice at this point?

Clearly there is no more peace to keep. The border is full of holes punched by the IAF and Israeli ground forces. Supply lines are cut that would allow UNIFIL to provide humanitarian relief (which I am not sure is part of UNIFIL's mandate). It seems that UN brass is well aware of the position that they find themselves in, yet is unwilling (or unable?) to place their troops out of harms way.

Again you make this seem as if Annan just waves a magic wand and 2300 people magically evacuate.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:48 (nineteen years ago)

"a few days ago, flyers were dropped down on us from the sky. this is one of them. we have deciphered it as a pic of nasrallah coming out of a vase saying "any services?" around him are the president of syria, the leader of hamas, and the iranian president. on the bottom of the vase it says "beirut". oh, and they are all sitting on a map of lebanon. i found this near the Phoenicia Hotel."

from beirut update

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:51 (nineteen years ago)

So, what's so bad about that flyer?

starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:54 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's sort of funny that they're airdropping editorial cartoons.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:57 (nineteen years ago)

yeah silly me, i forgot, caricatures are only offensive when they're drawn by arabs. or danes.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 27 July 2006 03:58 (nineteen years ago)

I really don't think political correctness is the most important issue at the moment. And even if it was, that cartoon is pretty tasteful as far as political cartoons go.

starke (starke), Thursday, 27 July 2006 04:03 (nineteen years ago)


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