glad i have mine. i might be moving to d.c. though? what the fuck
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 04:12 (seven years ago) link
i'm so scared right now
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 04:13 (seven years ago) link
France will likely elect a right winger in May but it'll probably be Juppé, not Le Pen.
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 04:17 (seven years ago) link
conservatives not losing grip in england any time soon. i believe in the thesis statement of this thread more than ever.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 04:22 (seven years ago) link
Feeling a brand new kind of fear and despair this morning
― more fun than an Acclaimed Music poll (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:22 (seven years ago) link
i feel scared
― marcos, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:28 (seven years ago) link
i think we live a very dangerous moment and i don't know if this post-ww2 period of relative equilibrium is going to hold much longer. i hope i'm just being hyperbolic but it seems like we're heading towards some scary times. what i learnt from my great-grandparents was that the bonds of society are tenuous and easily frayed and that when they collapse they can explode in danger + violence. i hope we get through the next few years + are able to minimize what could surely be the worst yet to come.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:31 (seven years ago) link
We've been pretty lucky to have 7 decades of relative peacefulness. This, along with other election results this year, just really shows people don't really give a fuck anymore, because they don't think the consequences will be that bad...
― Jill, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:39 (seven years ago) link
Rome took like 10-15 terrible rulers before it really hit the shitter iirc
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:57 (seven years ago) link
i think there will be a lot of hyperbole in the next few days, or accusations of hyperbole and emotional showboating anyway. but a candidate who explicitly positioned himself as refusing to be bound by democratic process (or basic respect for human rights) is about to become Commander-in-Chief of the US military. not sure there's enough hyperbole to cover that.
― more fun than an Acclaimed Music poll (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:58 (seven years ago) link
I'm fairly certain we're not facing Syria or Venezeula and we're not facing 1938 Europe or 1860 America. Which isn't to say things don't look terribly bleak but it does make sense to put it into some context.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 06:59 (seven years ago) link
the damage will likely not be so dramatic or immediate, sure. but i have a real feeling of not knowing how far this will go or where it can end
― more fun than an Acclaimed Music poll (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:03 (seven years ago) link
I'm more concerned about the Frank Gaffney / Peter Thiel dream team whispering in his ear than Trump himself. I'm not sure this will be a definitive break from GWB, just a horrible magnification of its worst excesses. And we're still dealing with the fallout from the first time around.
The only positive recently has been Polish women showing that if you withdraw your labour from the market, you can stymie parts of a regressive platform. Six million people going on strike forced the government to shelve even more restrictive abortion laws. That kind of tactic might have a value in the US and UK over the next few years.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:04 (seven years ago) link
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Wednesday, November 9, 2016 2:04 AM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Sorry if people couldn't be arsed to vote in large numbers against Trump why would they care for such tactics? Life in Williamsburg and in Silicon Valley will continue to be pretty great I'm certain.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:06 (seven years ago) link
People did vote in fairly large numbers against Trump, Brexit, PiS, etc, but not large enough to stop them. The common theme with all of them is that they had enough of the public vote to win but (and I think this will be true of Trump as well) a majority of economically active people voted the other way. They have a power over and above their vote. I don't think it will do much to stop the wider economic programme or foreign policy catastrophes but on single issues it might be effective.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:15 (seven years ago) link
if i thought there were techno-puppeteers whispering into trump's ears that would almost make me feel a little better but i don't think he plans to listen to anyone. i hope ppl in nat sec can prevail on him to not withdraw from the world stage, or that if he does that putin at least shows some resistance. annexing south ossetia we can probably live with. all of ukraine? moldova? one thing that concerns/interests me is that it seems like now, maybe more than ever before in history, there is zero moral authority in the world. if i were a dictator or a fascist or i had a neighbor whose land i coveted or an ethnic group that i thought it would be convenient to ethnically cleanse, this seems like the perfect time to do it. who is going to stop you?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:16 (seven years ago) link
not sure we should hope the type of nat sec people who are likely to have his ear see their suggestions prevail
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:20 (seven years ago) link
you want to strike a balance but i'd like some guys in there who are maybe like "hey let's not detonate any tactical nukes in the field that seems like a bad idea" or "you know that torture thing didn't work out too great last time maybe let's avoid that one" or "hey let's just reassure japan and the saudis and maybe dissuade them from getting nukes"
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:21 (seven years ago) link
wonder how bibi feels right now. probably nervous. bennett is gonna be knocking on his door in a few minutes asking when they can start annexing area C.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:22 (seven years ago) link
Yglesias bad a sad tweet about the difference between trump and brexit is that brexit at least won a majority
― carthago delenda est (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:25 (seven years ago) link
I strongly suspect that someone will sit him down over the next few days and remind him how many of his colleagues depend on the military industrial complex for their seats. The projection of American power is unlikely to go anywhere. How that power is expressed is anyone's guess but I suppose I can forget about doing any business with Iran over the next four years.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:30 (seven years ago) link
ARPAIO OUT
― brimstead, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 07:34 (seven years ago) link
http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/Likud-MKs-react-to-Trumps-victory-in-US-Presidential-Election-472088
After congratulating President-elect Donald Trump, and thanking defeated Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton for her friendship to Israel, Bayit Yehudi chairman and Education Minister Naftali Bennett said "the era of a Palestinian state is over.""Trump's victory is an opportunity for Israel to immediately retract the notion of a Palestinian state in the center of the country, which would hurt our security and just cause. This is the position of the President-elect, as written in his platform, and it should be our policy, plain and simple," he wrote.
"Trump's victory is an opportunity for Israel to immediately retract the notion of a Palestinian state in the center of the country, which would hurt our security and just cause. This is the position of the President-elect, as written in his platform, and it should be our policy, plain and simple," he wrote.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 13:33 (seven years ago) link
this wolfgang munchau bit has also been doing the rounds
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwzzYmNXEAAN6M8.jpg
― ogmor, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 13:55 (seven years ago) link
The world's most powerful person who is neither an authoritarian nor a nutjob is, as of this week, Angela Merkel. This is not good news.
― Wes Brodicus, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 15:48 (seven years ago) link
yeah that is very sobering.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 15:56 (seven years ago) link
Huntington in 2004
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw1QafgXgAEI_MG.jpg:large
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 17:04 (seven years ago) link
In the Netherlands Wilders obv gloating about Trump's victory, calling it "another boost in the worldwide patriotic spring". We've elections in March next year. That will be fun :-/
― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 17:52 (seven years ago) link
People will fight really hard to hold onto what they have, whatever shitty thing it is.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 18:14 (seven years ago) link
The Netherlands got overrun by its more powerful neighbor the last time patriotic nationalism got up a big head of steam in Europe.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:07 (seven years ago) link
It's so weird this worldwide international nationalism right I feel like we've barely touched on it but it's obv very real. Is it comparable to Germany Japan and Italy or is this some weird new thing? What do Russian patriots and US patriots and French patriots really have in common? It's really international white supremacism isn't t?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:10 (seven years ago) link
Describing anything this complex as 'just' anything does not feel particularly productive.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:17 (seven years ago) link
Is it comparable to Germany Japan and Italy or is this some weird new thing?
the obvious difference is that this new nationalism seems more concerned with a kind of isolationism, retrenchment, and the like. WW2 Japan, Italy, and Germany were more or less embarking on colonial adventures, no? at the very least the whole "autarky" idea which drove hitler and his ilk is surely a player here but i have seen no desire for expansionism, or securing "lebensraum" or any of that. it would well be that this represents merely an internal momentum that will eventually turn outward but it's hard to say.
― ryan, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:27 (seven years ago) link
i have seen no desire for expansionism, or securing "lebensraum" or any of that.
Russian patriots were mentioned.
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:40 (seven years ago) link
failure to integrate restive Muslim populations in Europe is obvious #1 driver, I think. maybe even in US too. there's a strong desire to make this problem "just go away"
not (yet) driven by desire for military adventuring, if anything the opposite
― it me, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:42 (seven years ago) link
maybe even in US too.
What, all 1% of them?
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:44 (seven years ago) link
I thought the US has done an admirable job integrating our Muslim citizens and might have been a model.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:48 (seven years ago) link
(Not to say there were no problems just comparably that the melting pot model might still be resilient)
― Mordy, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:49 (seven years ago) link
Possibly because there's so few of them?
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:52 (seven years ago) link
i think as this century goes on we're gonna see ever greater pressure put on the distinction (increasingly explicit) between those are afforded the benefits of the security apparatus of the modern nation state and those who will be reduced, essentially, to barbarians at the gate. hope i shuffle off before it gets worse but it will.
― ryan, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:54 (seven years ago) link
Also they seem, from the the perspective of the UK, more middle class. More like the Indian community in the UK. (xp)
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:56 (seven years ago) link
on an optimistic note, however, i think we're about to see, in the US at least, a real revival of progressive politics at the grass roots level--trump will have his own version of the tea party to deal with. whether this accelerates the rightward drift or slows it down is impossible to say.
― ryan, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 22:57 (seven years ago) link
World population predictions suggest you're right.
― nickn, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 23:01 (seven years ago) link
Re your first point.
yeah, and the "security" idea may be the key to really fleshing out how this differs from the 30s. this is about drawing the ladder up after you.
― ryan, Wednesday, 9 November 2016 23:04 (seven years ago) link
also a lot more space, also geographically isolated: when the US pulls some shit in the middle east it is Europe that has to clean up after.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 9 November 2016 23:08 (seven years ago) link
not saying it's rational, but my sense is that an overwhelming majority of Americans want a complete stop to further Muslim immigration to the US, although can't/won't admit this in public. I think this is a wedge issue
other contributors, specific to US:
* dismay at recent riots, strong desire to keep crime rate low. Fear of a return to early 90s crime rates looms large in the minds of older Americans, especially property owners. yes it's racist* street-level knowledge of Mexican black-tar heroin distribution rings and frustration at meaningful law enforcement efforts to curb them (think this underreported issue might have swung Ohio and PA)* frustration with PC witch hunts, desire never to hear word "microaggression" again, don't want to lose job over a stray tweet* visceral, gut-level hatred of HRC
― it me, Thursday, 10 November 2016 00:00 (seven years ago) link
also—and this is worldwide—a sense that the left no longer has any ideas, and indeed, that what's called the "left" is just a placeholder for centrist, technocratic, ineffective political management
― it me, Thursday, 10 November 2016 00:08 (seven years ago) link
* frustration with PC witch hunts, desire never to hear word "microaggression" again, don't want to lose job over a stray tweet
Think there has been a massive failure with this, it's true - failure to communicate the fact that most/all of us humans still have some level of sexism / racism / prejudice and that it's all of our duty as rational human beings to recognise and deal with that. There has been a tendency to pull out somebody's off-colour remark or bad-taste joke and go after them as "the enemy" - the (silent) reaction of many is going to be that they've said similar things before and are scared they will be next - witch-hunts do not lead to the needed self-questioning, and this needs to be recognised quickly. (Want to be clear that I'm not saying we should in any way compromise with genuine shitbags or give white males special treatment, in case anyone was wondering)
― Camaraderie at Arms Length, Thursday, 10 November 2016 00:50 (seven years ago) link
a placeholder for centrist, technocratic, ineffective political management
tbf, as government goes, this is one of the most benign formulations any of us is ever likely to live under. just about anything we exchange this for will be worse.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 10 November 2016 00:53 (seven years ago) link