immigrant & ethnic food cultures, white ppl & appropriation, foodies

http://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/special-reports/top-100-independents

two of the three highest grossing restaurants in america is an asian restaurant run by white dudes

ripped from today's headlines!

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/nyregion/chopped-cheese-sandwich-harlem.html

kind of a dumb fight though. it's hamburger and cheese...on a roll. i'd rather have a cheesesteak. i could really go for a good cheesesteak...

that list gets more interesting if you order by least expensive to most expensive or just take Las Vegas out entirely

tao is bad

i'm not familiar so i just picture it as a large, pricier p.f. chang's

In ultra-high-priced restaurants the food doesn't matter nearly as much as the reputation, the service and the ambience. The customers want to think they are paying for something super extra special. The food is only a prop within the overall theater production.

the food's usually pretty good if overly focused on presentation, not sure what you're on about

Pretty good food is obtainable at tens of thousands of restaurants.

Tao is an asian-themed nightclub that serves dinner, not a restaurant

anybody remember spice market??

In ultra-high-priced restaurants the food doesn't matter nearly as much as the reputation, the service and the ambience. The customers want to think they are paying for something super extra special. The food is only a prop within the overall theater production.

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 7 November 2016 18:31

I don't believe that the food is "only a prop"; in most of the high-end restaurants I've visited (though not all) the food is way past "pretty good". So I'm inclined to disagree with your sweeping statement, though I suppose I don't know which restaurants you're on about, what you mean by ultra-high priced, how you know about this con pulled on the credulous suckers, and so on.

the performative opulence of even semi-pricey restaurants can make the food part of the ritual relatively small, no matter how good, so the other elements are what is most distinctive. surely everyone has had first rate dishes at cheaper places

No doubt people have had delicious food at not-very-high prices, but by your logic I should never have been disappointed with only-mediocre food in pricey restaurants, and I surely have been.

I am not saying the non-food parts of the experience of eating at high-end restaurants are non-existent or not-important but most of the most surprising dishes I've ever eaten have been at high-end places. Certainly some of the most individual and distinctive food - a personal (or house) style of cooking is something which becomes more important as you get to the higher end. For example, it's pretty rare to find cheaper restaurants where the food is as complex or as (obviously) intricately prepared as some of the cheffier places.

Mostly I am reacting to a kind of "I've seen through the Emperor's new clothes" vibe of Aimless's comments. I'm perfectly happy to accept someone might think the food is better, more delicious, in cheaper places, that's a matter of taste. None of my very favourite restaurants are super pricey fwiw. But IME it's not the exact same stuff just presented on a fancier plate with a smoother front-of-house, and it's way more important in the whole thing than "just a prop".

(Incidentally, while I am agreeing that the atmosphere and presentation are an important part of the expensive end of eating out, I think that extends to pretty much anywhere else too; there's a performative element to pretty much anywhere we can eat and it surely has some effect on our perception of quality, one way or another: see knocking on 1000 messages in this thread! You could make the "food is no more than just a prop" argument about anywhere at all, since it's totally impossible to prove one way or another.)

we're not really disagreeing. chefs know the best way to get someone to really enjoy a tomato is not just to cook it really well but to do whatever you can to get the eater in the most receptive mood possible and I think the gulf in quality wrt 'the theatre of dining' is larger than the difference in the deliciousness of the food, tho I will grant that the food is generally going to be more sophisticated/stylised/faffy as you go up price brackets (less so when they're championing the virtues of simplicity)

obv all the contextual surrounds exist with any food but the way pricier places try to control/influence it is more striking, I think

I think the gulf in quality wrt 'the theatre of dining' is larger than the difference in the deliciousness of the food

You might very well be right about that - though I wouldn't know how to begin to quantify those differences in order to compare them.

It's clear that in high-end places a good chunk of the cost goes to creating an environment where you're most receptive to enjoying the food, and giving the customer some sense of luxury. But that doesn't mean "the food doesn't matter nearly as much as the reputation, the service and the ambience" - that's something different.

Mostly I just object to the tone of any argument which runs along the lines of "there people who think they are enjoying (whatever thing) are being fooled", at least without some supporting evidence.

"these people", not "there people"

there are a whole set of preconceptions about food that tie to how we define ourselves. it's why i dislike reading restaurant reviews - it's easy to tell which part of society the reviewer hates or what hackneyed set of values they base their every reaction on, probably because reviewing food without tying it to trends, the people behind those trends, and a few base signifiers is really difficult.

i'm not saying none of those things matter, just that i'd rather interpret them for myself on a case by case basis rather than buy into some sort of blanket opinion.

even itt the discussions of "semi-pricey" restaurants are sort of strange. maybe it's diff in america, tho not in my experience, but i can't categorise restaurants by price - the atmosphere is wildly different even at similar price ranges, as is the aim or feel of the restaurant, or the food and type of food, the service and the decor etc etc.

most of the boundaries between things are eroded - at least in london.

way off topic now but Bordeaux is really weird in that really nice restaurants with v high quality food are not particularly expensive, and in many cases are cheaper than bog-standard "brasserie" cafe style places (the sort of place that has lots of tables outside, a standard menu of salads, cote de boeuf, fish of the day, wine, coffee etc). of course the very low end, like fast food, is cheaper than any of that. but my closest cafe, not in the centre of town, which has terrible food and peremptory service, charges 14 euros for a salad and 25 for a steak - about double my favourite place - which is smack in the oldest, quaintest part of Bordeaux!

sometimes you just want some tasty food and don't care what kind of stuff they have on their walls

as someone that eats out almost every day, i have a lot to say on this. but as far as this:

So I'm inclined to disagree with your sweeping statement, though I suppose I don't know which restaurants you're on about, what you mean by ultra-high priced, how you know about this con pulled on the credulous suckers, and so on.

― Tim, Tuesday, November 8, 2016 1:44 AM (seven hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

but, in the usa, there is a way to qualify the bad food used in mid to high-end places: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2013/02/21/fake-fish-on-shelves-and-restaurant-tables-across-usa-new-study-says/#20dab0c35941

they serve mislabelled fish, farmed fish, and also, for example, use rice in sushi that not even japanenese would want: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rice-trade-20150611-story.html

to quote this article:

For years Charley Mathews Jr. has exported tons of his best Sacramento Valley-grown rice to Japan, but it grates on him that very little of that has ever ended up on the tables of sushi restaurants or Japanese households.

Instead, the Japanese government, which controls rice imports under a 2-decade-old quota system, has given away most of his and other foreign rice as food aid or sold it domestically as animal feed and an ingredient for rice crackers.

in other words, that expensive sushi is made with rice that japanese think is only good for feeding animals

i've found that quite a few "high-end" restaurants in the usa are especially bad, cutting corners anywhere they can, and they focus on the "experience" and "presentation," instead.

i happen to know that there are only a couple major wholesale fish sources in los angeles, so most high-end restaurants get their fish from these two places, but they bid on them early in the morning to get the best cuts. some of these restaurants overcharge for sure

this is not to say that i've not been to high-end restaurants and have been genuinely surprised by the quality and taste, but in my opinion it is rare and these restaurants charge upwards to $150 to $500 per person

anything under $100 is already iffy, so i reserve that for special occasions and just enjoy the experience, knowing full well that i'm being overcharged

"special occasions" in quotes, because for the really special occasions i'll splurge a few hundred bucks per person and i'm generally satisfied with my choices

yes, bad restaurants exist

i love places where i feel like there's this sense of experimentation or effort, which is why i guess i try to limit dining out to special occasions. after awhile i got tired and annoyed with places that had a small menu focused on artisanal beard bacon comfort food, like the $10 grilled cheese kinda thing, or the $15 burger shit. usually paired with a curated selection of craft beers that always seems to be kinda the same. anderson boont valley amber ale, don't ever want to see it again.

chefs know the best way to get someone to really enjoy a tomato is not just to cook it really well but to do whatever you can to get the eater in the most receptive mood possible and I think the gulf in quality wrt 'the theatre of dining' is larger than the difference in the deliciousness of the food, tho I will grant that the food is generally going to be more sophisticated/stylised/faffy as you go up price brackets (less so when they're championing the virtues of simplicity)

obv all the contextual surrounds exist with any food but the way pricier places try to control/influence it is more striking, I think

― ogmor, Tuesday, November 8, 2016 3:53 AM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is really spot on. i've had a $200 glass of wine and whisky, and believe me, i would not notice the difference between an $80 one and a $200 one, especially when not drinking them side by side. but if you really analyze why they charge that much, it comes down to "oh it is rare." ya well rare doesn't really mean anything to me, personally, but people like rare things, it makes them think it tastes better. but rarely is there a special process to it in making it or something else that makes it stand out, except that it is rare

i would much rather pay less for something that is prepared differently and therefore offers a different taste, than something that is very rare and get charged an arm and a leg for it

yes, bad restaurants exist

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, November 8, 2016 9:46 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

to clarify, it's not simply that "bad restaurants exist," it's that bad restaurants exist with a facade of being a good restaurant with "good reviews" -- but few have any idea that you actually pay to be on zagat and there are ways restaurants circumvent the medium to appear to be "good"

even itt the discussions of "semi-pricey" restaurants are sort of strange. maybe it's diff in america, tho not in my experience, but i can't categorise restaurants by price - the atmosphere is wildly different even at similar price ranges, as is the aim or feel of the restaurant, or the food and type of food, the service and the decor etc etc.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, November 8, 2016 5:13 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is very true in the us. go to yelp, and you'll find a lot of restaurants wanting to categorize their restaurant at 2-dollar signs and the fancy ones at 3-dollar signs. people complain about how the 2-dollar sign restaurants actually charge more than they expected

but it depends on what part of town and even that is sometimes not a strong indicator

i've had decent, cheap breakfast in beverly hills and overpriced crappy breakfast in koreatown, but both were 2-dollar sign on yelp

I don't think that the Japanese government sells American rice downmarket is necessarily an indicator of relative quality as much as perceived quality, unless someone's actually cooked and served both and weighed in on the difference. I'd believe the American product isn't as good, but a government intentionally undervaluing an import product and declaring the inherent quality of local product is also highly probable

brunch is such a scam meal

also people in la love salty food

not sure what it is, but it is annoying for me, so i have to look for keywords in reviews like "bland" or "needed salt" or something along those lines, because "too much sodium" ruins my meal, it's hard to guess though

but a government intentionally undervaluing an import product and declaring the inherent quality of local product is also highly probable

― mh 😏, Tuesday, November 8, 2016 9:54 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is possible, but i can tell you rice production is a lot more meticulous in japan, and at least to my taste buds, tastes better

there are a lot of "good" but actually bad restaurants in L.A.

love 2 eat

^ can confirm

f#a# would u say you are a...legendary foodie

feel like i could ask you anything, seriously

lol

i prefer word of mouth recs

chinese friends' suggestions always have bad reviews on yelp

turns out their recs (hole in the walls) are better than yelp's

but that tastiness comes at a price and it's called high sodium

so i mix it up and have healthier foods on other days

http://www.eater.com/2016/11/14/13609294/maps-immigrant-minority-restaurants

stealth acknowledgment that food blogging is more about novelty than actual good food

is that really the only takeaway you have?

not at all!

I think it's a decent statement, what's your take?

I was being a little needlessly cynical, my first thought was "well, they've spent a lot of time not covering restaurants, now they have a reason not to"

is that really the only takeaway you have?
― 龜, Monday, 14 November 2016 16:31 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

enjoying the contextual pun possibilities hwrw

lots of interesting stuff in this article - https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jan/12/who-killed-the-british-curry-house

Indian food in Britain used to mean south Asian immigrants cooks trying to cater for white British tastes; now it often means white Britons trying to reproduce authentic Indian recipes.

and

Nikita Gulhane, the cookery teacher, told me that he wished Indian food could arrive in Britain all over again, on more equal terms, without the baggage of colonialism and migration and “going for an Indian”. Think about how excited people in London are about Korean food, he observed. If only we could taste Indian food for the first time, Gulhane continued, “People would think, ‘this is mental’.”

don't think that ship has sailed. people don't think, when dismissing a curry on brick lane or whatever, that that's representative of all indian food. similar with chinese food, the fact there are grim isolated takeaways scattered around london doesn't taint most people's opinion of chinese food.

i mean, presumably it does for some people but not the type of people who might get excited about korean food.

not necessarily, but people are more likely to have preconceptions about indian food than korean or whatever though

i guess so. korean food is an interesting example - a friend told me when living in japan korean food was seen as the sort of premium whereas, i suppose due to the history of the two countries, chinese food was denigrated and like a thing to blame for an illness or whatever.

I dont think I've ever seen a high end Caribbean restaurant in the UK, there must be something in London though

I am not aware of any. The Rum Kitchen in Notting Hill might be closest but that's firmly mid-range. There's a guy called Jason Howard (iirc) who does high-end contemporary West Indian food on Instagram and has had some press coverage for considering opening a restaurant but i think he just does private catering for now.

To make a massive generalisation 'high end Caribbean' typically means super-fresh seafood pitched at wealthy tourists which isn't a model that's easy to replicate in the UK. To make another massive generalisation, Caribbean joints in the UK are much more likely to be pitched at a Caribbean-heritage audience than the vast majority of Indian or Chinese places.