2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

But conservative evangelical leaders can say that 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina were divine retribution for the immorality of New York and New Orleans, respectively?

and the whole AIDS thing, I mean have you heard of the Tuskegee Experiment? The Gov't purposely infecting black people with Syphillis?

The rumor and fantasy are starting to fly fast and furious here. It's a long stretch from the Tuskegee Experiment (which didn't infect anyone with syphilis, it involved not treating syphilis) to the idea that the government created AIDS.

FYI the San Jose Mercury News retracted a lot of Webb's reporting and backed away from the stories under heavy pressure. doesn't mean it was all not true, but just saying. I don't really know the whole backstory behind it.

I'm not passing it off as fact, I'm just saying that it isn't farfetched when you take history into account.

and the whole AIDS thing, I mean have you heard of the Tuskegee Experiment? The Gov't purposely infecting black people with Syphillis?

Yeah, this I knew.

I don't personally believe it but I can see why some people would

He has to thow him under the bus and then back up over him again

___________________________________

This is exactly what he must NOT do if he wishes to retain his appeal.

This back-and-forth is a good illustration of the box Obama is in because of Wright's comments.

I'm not passing it off as fact, I'm just saying that it isn't farfetched when you take history into account.

I think it is farfetched.

whatever

Some Webb/San Jose Mercury News postscript info: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0818-33.htm

Yeah, this I knew.

Government never infected anyone with syphilis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

I think what Obama's campaign could do is push exposure of Rev. Wright's more positive, uplifting sermons (which, I am certain, eclipse the negative, conspiratorial ones in number by a huge proportion) and push exposure of Sen. Obama's own speeches made to church congregations.

o. nate, i hope you're not implying that not treating syphilis is somehow more defensible than deliberate infection.

He's not implying that at all, dude.

fair enough. but i think it's pretty fruitless toil to examine all of the claims made by rev. wright for verifiability, as none of that is going to reduce the controversy. the larger theme -- that african americans in this country still face systematic & institutional oppression in addition to quotidian, interpersonal bigotry -- is really the more important theme here.

elmotm

Q: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all over the wire today (from an ABC News story), a statement that your pastor (the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's South Side) made in a sermon in 2003 that instead of singing "God Bless America," black people should sing a song essentially saying "God Damn America."

A: I haven't seen the line. This is a pastor who is on the brink of retirement who in the past has made some controversial statements. I profoundly disagree with some of these statements.

Q: What about this particular statement?

A: Obviously, I disagree with that. Here is what happens when you just cherry-pick statements from a guy who had a 40-year career as a pastor. There are times when people say things that are just wrong. But I think it's important to judge me on what I've said in the past and what I believe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/14/jeremiah-wright-obamas-_n_91555.html

"anyone who believes that african americans do not face institutional oppression should be reminded of the efforts to disenfranchise black voters in florida in the 2000 elections"

^^ proposed 2-for-1 wright/florida talking point for obama

I totally agree elmo (lol). My question is - why does that offend people? Is it just the way he said it? Do they not want to face the (obvious) truth? This whole idea of "race doesn't matter/ we are all Americans" is fine and dandy, and it would be nice of that were the case.. but it really isn't. Obviously. Right?

wait, why is everyone giving o. nate a pass?

i dont think its paranoid for many black americans to be suspicious of the origins of AIDS when it 1. disproportionately affects the african-american community and 2. its a well-known fact that the american gov't had experiments where they sat in a lab watching people suffer from syphilis untreated.

sorry that i don't see 'infecting with syphilis' and 'not treating syphilis' as being all that different, but they're not

and its not like the tuskegee experiment, which happened in some of yr parents' lifetimes btw, is some isolated incident

i dont think its good to encourage the idea that AIDS was a government conspiracy but no, its not all that farfetched

Perhaps we should move the government created AIDS conspiracy theories to another thread.

If Rev. Wright had simply said "African Americans face discrimination", there would be no controversy. Trying to equate his more outlandish statements with that uncontroversial statement is deliberately missing the point.

"race doesn't matter/ we are all Americans"

The fudge here is that some folks will hear it that way and other people will hear it more as nationalism trumps racial differences.

o. nate, what is the "point," in your opinion?

The point is, is Obama doing enough to distance himself from Wright's statements?

no, i mean -- what is the "point" of rev. wrights statements?

I have no idea what his point was.

if you mean that in terms of 'in order to win the election,' no i dont think he is and i imagine his advisers agree and will presumably do something about it at some point now that this is a media firestorm

if you really think he should HAVE to 'distance' himself from them, i think thats nuts; all he SHOULD have to do is say 'yeah AIDS probably not a conspiracy, although i understand why ...' blah blah blah but of course thats no politically feasible because we live in a country with a large number of goofballs

NEWS FLASH: AMERICA HAS PERPETRATED VILE, INDEFENSIBLE ACTS AGAINST ITS OWN CITIZENS.

LATE UPDATE: AMERICANS ARE FUCKING AMNESIACS.

Sure, it has. See also: every other government that has ever existed.

Government violated basic Hippocratic oath principles with Tuskegee, however. People probably don't wanna hear about smallpox blankets either.

The problem with explaining institutionalized racism to LMC whites is they always feel like you're calling *them* bigots rather than engaging with why black people might feel badly treated 140+ years after the end of the Civil War. They reason since they're not being discriminatory to the best of their knowledge, that there should not be a problem. See also 'Michelle Obama is lucky/should be grateful' meme.

Sure, it has. See also: every other government that has ever existed.

-- o. nate, Friday, March 14, 2008 2:03 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

yet you think its farfetched that it would happen again?

fair enough. but i think it's pretty fruitless toil to examine all of the claims made by rev. wright for verifiability, as none of that is going to reduce the controversy. the larger theme -- that african americans in this country still face systematic & institutional oppression in addition to quotidian, interpersonal bigotry -- is really the more important theme here.

I can't get on board here. This kind of reasoning was tossed around when Fahrenheit 9-11 was released – "Oh, sure, Moore included a few outright lies but THE WAR WAS STILL A MISTAKE." Dude, you can say the war was a terrible calamity without resorting to Moore's distortions.

yet you think its farfetched that it would happen again?

I think it is farfetched that AIDS was created by the government.

o. nate, i don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or what, but calling attention to the fact that America has done WRONG SHIT and continues to do so doesn't make you a traitor. The mindset behind those calling for Rev. Wright's head is "MY COUNTRY, RIGHT OR WRONG," and that anyone who reminds us of our inglorious past must hate America.

I dunno, it was pretty easy to get stuff past Reagan.

But really, can we relocate all this conspiratorial discussion to a different thread? I've got a headache from rolling my eyes so much.

what about an american president, revered by conservatives who will be voting for mccain, who said in his official memoirs that he wondered if aids was a punishment sent from god?

proposing that America can learn from past misdeeds and transcend the dark chapters of its own history -- that America can fulfill its promise DESPITE its history -- this is the idea I find simultaneously more pragmatic and more hopeful.

i look forward to lots of federal incidents surrounding right-wing backwoods secessionist nutjobs during the obama administration

I think lineage of how AIDS spread from Africa is quite clear to scientists these days, and its first known victims weren't American at all.

I think it is farfetched that AIDS was created by the government.

-- o. nate, Friday, March 14, 2008 2:07 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i dont think its 'farfetched,' i think its wrong
i think its understandable, based on past evidence, why some people might not see it as being farfetched

Yeah, I agree with both of those points.

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i dont think its 'farfetched,' i think its wrong

OK, this is some serious semantic hair-splitting.

Anyway, I do think Obama has to be very careful about how he responds to this Wright stuff. It's particularly dangerous for him because he still remains largely a blank slate to a lot of people, and things like this run the risk of defining him.

'incorrect' and 'inconceivable' are not synonyms, buddy.

just to be able to mention "Farrakhan", "Nation of Islam", "militant black", and "Barak Obama", in the same sentence over and over again, like neocons did with "Iraq", "Saddam Hussein", "Osama bin Laden", and "9/11", is enough to make an impression on people whose opinions are based on impressions formed from snippets of news shows, newspaper headlines, and other methods of disseminated 'knowledge' (who i believe make up the majority of people, as cynical as that may be).

i'm not sure how important those types of people are to who gets elected in 2008, but this seems like one of those news stories that has the potential to enter the sort of national consciousness that is the basis for Jay Leno jokes, SNL bits, and water cooler conversations. if that happens; i think Obama is finished.