We see her sending a raven. We do not see her receiving a raven. That's what we know.
― human and working on getting beer (longneck), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:17 (seven years ago) link
l feel the need to clarify that my problem with the show is not a few implausible moments or sketchy character motivations--i can live with those things to a degree, and every show has them--it's that almost without fail those lapses feel totally false even in the moment and not just when thinking about it later. it's totally possible to work your way backwards from just about anything that happens to make it "logical" (and most the explaining here is not accomplishing that for me) but there's no way to make it dramatically interesting in a lot of these cases. there are too many cheap "emotional" effects strung together in an almost mechanical fashion.
― ryan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:24 (seven years ago) link
Obviously Bran warged into LF's return raven and sent it off course. He also warged into Rickon and made him run in a straight line. Why? Heel turn.
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:26 (seven years ago) link
put another way, the seams show so clearly on this show simply because the drama is so inert.
― ryan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:28 (seven years ago) link
That's not my issue. With so much at stake why not tell Jon - it's not just his like at risk, but maybe her position in the north. If littlefinger's involvement is in question, maybe Jon could help tip the balance? If it's certain, why not shore up her position by telling him and delaying the battle?
― inside, skeletons are always inside, that's obvious. (dowd), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:47 (seven years ago) link
post your wun wun fan fic here
― thrusted pelvis-first back (ulysses), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:54 (seven years ago) link
showing up at the last minute after Jon's forces have been markedly reduced definitely serves LF's ends more than anyone else's. if sansa told him about it, he might have deliberately shown up at the last minute -- he saves the day, Sansa/Jon owe him, and he takes no/few losses
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:54 (seven years ago) link
I understand it dramatically, of course, by the show itself encourages a degree of nitpicky geekery.
― inside, skeletons are always inside, that's obvious. (dowd), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:55 (seven years ago) link
He also mentions Bill Belichick in Dance with Dragons:"...the fourth and final volume of The Life of the Triarch Belicho, a famous Volantene patriot whose unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants."This is referring to the New England Patriots' 2007 season, in which the Patriots went undefeated until losing in the Super Bowl to the New York Giants.
― thrusted pelvis-first back (ulysses), Thursday, 23 June 2016 14:57 (seven years ago) link
jfc
― Roberto Spiralli, Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:05 (seven years ago) link
Obviously Bran warged into LF's return raven and sent it off course.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Clearly Bran was too busy altering things in the past to waste time warging into birds. I mean, come on.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:25 (seven years ago) link
― ryan, Thursday, June 23, 2016 10:24 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
otm
― 龜, Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:44 (seven years ago) link
think ramsay's death disappointed me because it was a little too conventionally poetically just - you know GRRM is for sure going to have something different cooked up for him, even if it ends up being lame in another way
― 龜, Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:52 (seven years ago) link
i felt like jon snow punching him to death might have been enough.
tho ideally he'd have done that over his entire body, moving around and focussing on a different part until he had formed a resultant paste.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:53 (seven years ago) link
a final face-off between stone man jorah and paste man ramsay would be something to behold
― lazy rascals, spending their substance, and more, in riotous living (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:56 (seven years ago) link
would be cool if ramsay was like a 2d paper cutout after jon was finished with him.
the writers on this show have no imagination.
― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:58 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTL3AidX4o
― thrusted pelvis-first back (ulysses), Thursday, 23 June 2016 15:59 (seven years ago) link
Longneck otm
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:35 (seven years ago) link
― inside, skeletons are always inside, that's obvious. (dowd), Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:47 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Because she doesn't know? This doesn't even seem like a nitpick it feels like you getting emotionally involved in the battle outcome and deciding that Sansa was Bad
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:36 (seven years ago) link
Questionable assertion no 1she must have had some advance knowledge of where they were and when to be able to meet up with them
Questionable assertion no 2, where the word "so" does an an insane amount of heavy lifting:m. from her POV they did not just show up, and some amount of communication is implied since her first letter is implied. so she knew the extra force was coming and did not tell jon which could've influenced battle tactics and crucially timing.
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:40 (seven years ago) link
I won't get to see the final episode until many days later, and it makes me so sad that I'll miss all this delightful nitpicking and nitpicking of the nitpicking. Sad!
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:41 (seven years ago) link
The rest of that paragraph is a bunch of speculation that assumes you've drawn reasonable conclusions in those sentences which you haven't
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:41 (seven years ago) link
If Sansa didn't write them, then who do you think that letter she wrote was for?
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:46 (seven years ago) link
Sansa wrote to LF, the question is whether she received a reply before the battle
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:55 (seven years ago) link
It's possible she had absolutely no faith in the Vale showing up at all. The thing is, they were so desperate you'd think she'd be driven to share that she asked LF for help, just to delay almost certain defeat (and therefore her suicide) by another day with their collective fingers and toes crossed that the Vale shows up. After waiting as long as they're able to, THEN they give the battle a shot anyway. Obviously they wouldn't be "allowed" to delay things but they could milk it, or Jon could have used the possible Vale intervention as leverage to threaten Ramsay and make his followers question their loyalty, which is something he is shown doing already but hinging on the "you fight for him would he fight for you" stuff. Conclusion for me is:
Narrative reason: dumb Sansa
Show reason: exciting surprise for audience just as they begin to think their heroes are surely done for
― Evan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:55 (seven years ago) link
So... How did he find her if there wasn't further communication?
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:56 (seven years ago) link
I would imagine he had some scouts ffs
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:58 (seven years ago) link
Suspension of disbelief? Sansa shares info on where they will camp just outside of the designated battlefield? That camp happens to be en route to Winterfell?
― Evan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 16:59 (seven years ago) link
he read the script, duh
― lazy rascals, spending their substance, and more, in riotous living (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:00 (seven years ago) link
There are several totally plausible and boring ways LF could have figured out where the battle was going to occur. It doesn't really matter how it happened.
― silverfish, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:04 (seven years ago) link
How would Sansa know where they would camp? And why would the camp be on the route between the Vale and Winterfell? Sansa and Jon were coming from the other side.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:05 (seven years ago) link
Weren't they just outside of winterfell? Doesn't seem hard to "figure out." Ramsey rode on a horse with an entire army chasing him into the gate at winterfell from the battlefield...if the letter says "we need help at winterfell" there is exactly zero mystery how littlefinger found them u weirdos
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:09 (seven years ago) link
No, Sansa's/Jon's camp. Sansa wasn't going to go to the battle with everyone. The camp could have been east of Winterfell. This is a pretty tiny nitpick.
― Evan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:09 (seven years ago) link
xpost
Why must LF either stumble on the camp or be told by Sansa where it is? It's going to be close to Winterfell, where the battle of Winterfell is taking place. You can find a camp by sending a few guys up tall things and looking around.
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:09 (seven years ago) link
"Dear Peter my brother's army of Wildlings and 62 House Mormont dudebros are riding to take Winterfell from the Boltons, we leave two days hence and will make camp at X." jfc
― a 47-year-old chainsaw artist from South Carolina (Phil D.), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:10 (seven years ago) link
Maybe they went around Winterfell and came back towards where the army would logically camp (same place as Stannis did, so possibly a very obvious location)? Maybe they built a tunnel under winterfell? Who cares really, they just did it.
xxxp
― silverfish, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:10 (seven years ago) link
no man this ruins everything
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:11 (seven years ago) link
Littlefinger is coming from the exact opposite direction.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:12 (seven years ago) link
dude do you think he had to bring his entire army to the camp with him and attack from that direction?
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:14 (seven years ago) link
they needed to rest after the journey, the camp is a decent spot
― nomar, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:14 (seven years ago) link
Like, a pretty big point of having a giant castle is that you control the area surrounding it. The idea that Ramsay would just sit and wait while the opposing army walked around to the very best spot to camp is stupid.
And we can go on and on and on and on and on.
And on.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:15 (seven years ago) link
The nitpicking around this show with the internet at large seems to labor on the fact that they don't show every single detail play out on screen. It's like that "where did the dogs go?" bullshit from earlier in the season. It takes no mental energy to fill in certain details that aren't explicitly shown. Sansa's motivations are more interesting than whether LF has scouts or binoculars at his disposal...
― Evan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
Showing Sansa besides Littlefinger was so extremely dumb. What did it even achieve?
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
It reiterates that they had an agreement.
It also makes her showing up when Jon was punching Ramsay a little more logical than via a puff of smoke.
― Evan, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:18 (seven years ago) link
Yeah, but the problem is exactly that they never clarified what kind of agreement they had. So it just brings to mind a poorly handled plotpoint.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:20 (seven years ago) link
If they hadn't done that frederik would be complaining about the logistics of Sansa's movements this very moment
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:20 (seven years ago) link
If the vale turning up was unexpected, why not mention it to Jon? They were scraping th barrel for hope, and she had some.
― inside, skeletons are always inside, that's obvious. (dowd), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:21 (seven years ago) link
How exactly would you stop an opposing army from doing whatever it wanted without actually battling it. Send out a constable?
― Blowout Coombes (President Keyes), Thursday, 23 June 2016 17:21 (seven years ago) link