The argument that says "It is socially acceptable to beat women because the men doing the beating don't realize it isn't socially acceptable" is really, really, really stupid. Given the media saturation of the past two decades of the problems of domestic abuse and heightened availability/awareness of options for getting out of abusive relationships, you would have to believe that every man who beats a woman is living under a rock if he realizes he's doing something wrong, let alone the whole manipulative "It's your fault, why do you make me do this to you?" tactic of keeping the victim from seeking help basically screaming that the abuser knows he's doing wrong.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
how many women in here feel safe walking down a city street alone at night? I ask because I am a walker. I'm male, but of fairly slight proportions, but when I'm walking at night and happen to find myself behind a woman, or even two women, they usually turn back every so often or pick up their pace or turn off (the worst is when my path is coincidentally the same as theirs), but I get the very clear impression that my presence, as unintimidating as I may be to folks who know, makes them nervous.
I ask because I am a walker. I'm male, but of fairly slight proportions, but when I'm walking at night and happen to find myself behind a woman, or even two women, they usually turn back every so often or pick up their pace or turn off (the worst is when my path is coincidentally the same as theirs), but I get the very clear impression that my presence, as unintimidating as I may be to folks who know, makes them nervous.
I've noticed this too and I realized that I usually end up slowing my pace or crossing the street so I won't be perceived as a threat.
― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
Perhaps there should be a separate thread for this issue, though.
― N. Cognito, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
I did not and have never said that domestic abuse wasn't a widespread problem. I said that domestic abuse is not socially acceptable. You say it is, largely because it exists. For evidence of this, you are offering the words of people who have committed domestic abuse as proof that people find it to be socially acceptable. I'm sorry, that's fucking stupid. Are you expecting these guys to break down and admit that they are wrong so that they can open themselves up to full prosecution? Surely I'm not the only one who thinks that is a dangerously naive view of how people who contravene socially accepted norms behave?
Painting aggressors as victims: Classic or Idiotic?
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
― g.cannon (gcannon), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― N. Cognito, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
(I'm in London and you're in Boston: maybe the situation is better there.)(Also, however nasty and ignored domestic violence is, those quotes at the start of all this are funny and stupid, and not to do with domestic violence at all. Had the title not tried to turn this into a general dismissal of modern feminists, I'd have been quite happy with the thread maintaining that tone.)
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
Who's putting words in your mouth?
That is so not what I've been writing, at all. Martin's posts are pretty close to the point that I thought I was making. I certainly wasn't "offering the words of people who have committed domestic abuse" in anything I wrote, and to state that is just as much "putting words in my mouth" as you claim has happened to you.
Uh, that's not what I did, at all.
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:49 (twenty-one years ago) link
― N. Cognito, Monday, 24 February 2003 21:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
oh yeah a cursory glance at any cultural artifact SCREAMS that, right. excuse me while i go fix my bikini and get into a mud-wrestling match, gotta prove my worth somehow!
― maura (maura), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― No One (SiggyBaby), Monday, 24 February 2003 21:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― di smith (lucylurex), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
You could make the case that men don't have the right to dress up in a bikini and mud wrestle...at least not if the want the right to not get the shit kicked out of them.
― oops (Oops), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― maura (maura), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
I, for one, thought that the "we" Andrew was referring to was the ILX community, not the entire global society, so I didn't have a problem with his statement because I don't think anyone who regularly posts to this board thinks that women are inferior to men.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
And moreover that overreacting to academic feminist rhetoric is the biggest most boring DUD of all time with the possible exception of the songtitle "Don't Bomb When You Are the Bomb" which exists on its own rarefied cloud of dudness
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
Dan I never made this claim. I claimed that it's socially acceptible because it exists, not because of anything its perpetrators or victims claim.
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 22:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
What about "it's all about oil"?
― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― suzy (suzy), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
"I would assume that one of the reasons I've see anti-domestic violence ads in public transit are because some men might not know it's a crime. I.e. it's 'acceptible' to them."
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 22:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 23:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm not certain that "socially acceptable" is neccesarily the correct term (if only because it is loaded with all sorts of nasty moral connotations), but there certainly is a wide-spread societal acceptance of the idea that domestic violence or rape is a male crime perpetrated against female victims, despite the fact that this is empirically false. I'm not sure if that's what you meant though.
― -M, Monday, 24 February 2003 23:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 23:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― hstencil, Monday, 24 February 2003 23:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
I agree. This is the same question that is at stake when people bring up the issue of censorship and so-called hate speech legislation.
Nooooo!!!!!! Don't you dare diss Blur!!! :)
― -M, Monday, 24 February 2003 23:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
Martin is totally OTM- this thread wouldn't have been so bad if Andrew had just titled it "the gender studies class my gf's attending sucks" (not that everyone would have agreed with him, mind you, but the examples he quotes in that first post are worthy of dissertation, at least.)
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
You've not been on ILM much, have you? :)
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
Q1: Would someone go around bragging about beating their wife?Q2: Would someone go around bragging about beating someone in a fight?
― Graham (graham), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
But do they swallow?
*runs away to bed*
― Lara (Lara), Monday, 24 February 2003 23:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
No, that's an urban legend.
― Phil (phil), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 00:03 (twenty-one years ago) link