just as i would say to a gay marriage opponent who wants to preserve the 'sanctity' of the word 'marriage', i ask you how your life would be personally affected by a couple who wants to get married officially getting married?
― the rickey henderson of sbs (J0rdan S.), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:37 (fifteen years ago) link
take, for example, when i went to a screening of 'Milk' at the Castro Theater. in line with many men (and some women), many of whom were married or had been planning to get married, i was confronted by a cohort of gays wearing matching shirts passing out fliers that warned people of 'dangerous elements' (read: homeless, mostly African-American or hispanic men) in the neighborhood that would 'steal your valuables and holiday gifts' from your car or your person. the racist and classist overtones inherent in this act are disgusting imho-- gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:38 (fifteen years ago) link
that's a pretty awful reason to be against gay marriage dude, i gotta say
― the rickey henderson of sbs (J0rdan S.), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:39 (fifteen years ago) link
awful anecdote at least
― the rickey henderson of sbs (J0rdan S.), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:40 (fifteen years ago) link
are you blind, j0rdan?
it is not the right to marry that i am opposed to, really. it is the results of what will happen when these rights are finally given.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:43 (fifteen years ago) link
and how is it an awful anecdote? you support ignorance?
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:44 (fifteen years ago) link
I am a homosexual against gay marriage
― the rickey henderson of sbs (J0rdan S.), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:45 (fifteen years ago) link
yeah marriage really ruined straight people too. it caused capitalism, i hear!
― goole, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:46 (fifteen years ago) link
nah i'm saying that projecting the actions of some ppl in a 3 block piece of san francisco out onto the rest of the gay population is idiotic
― the rickey henderson of sbs (J0rdan S.), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:46 (fifteen years ago) link
Most gays are already part of the capitalist dream, table -- or want to be. Since gays are as boring, awful, and predictable as our het brethren, there's no reason to project Genet-esque fantasies of subversion on them.
it seems, alfred, that we know different types of gays.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:46 (fifteen years ago) link
j0rdan, the history of gays 'claiming' a neighborhood and then gentrifying it is so long it would make your head spin.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:47 (fifteen years ago) link
What's it to you if you don't approve the "results" of another couple marrying? Jordan OTM: you're creating a slippery slope similar in intention to Maggie Gallagher and Ramesh Ponnoru's.
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:48 (fifteen years ago) link
it seems, alfred, that we know different types of gays
I'm very pleased you know a group of Sidney Poitier-esque Perfect Gays.
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:49 (fifteen years ago) link
― the table is the table, Thursday, April 9, 2009 9:38 PM (7 minutes ago)
dude, not all gay people are like this just like, as you obviously know, not all black people steal televisions for a living
xpost what jordan said
― k3vin k., Friday, 10 April 2009 01:49 (fifteen years ago) link
table, I guess what you're trying to say is that gay rights people complain a lot about marital rights, but those rights are trivial compared to the injustice that is right in front of their faces -- e.g. starvation, classism, etc. Is that correct?
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:49 (fifteen years ago) link
in a way, yes.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Look, I sympathize with your impulses. I've read my Wilde and Genet. Tension will always exist b/w us and the straight world -- tensions that a repeal of DOMA will never efface. Hooray! But the slippery slope of your subversion lead to "transgressive" acts like fucking indiscriminately enough to get you dead of AIDS, and that's not a fate to which I aspire, bub.
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 01:51 (fifteen years ago) link
So does it bother you that instead of feeding from the Chelsea/Castro cesspool, it'll be from the straight cesspool? Either way people are going to buy things they "need"
x-postss
― Ivan, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:53 (fifteen years ago) link
it bothers me gay or straight.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 01:57 (fifteen years ago) link
It's all good: without them, I don't know, Flaubert wouldn't have written Sentimental Education.
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 02:00 (fifteen years ago) link
i mean, i just feel like there is such an intense myopia going on here. the late 80s and early 90s and hell, even the late 90s, were horrific for a great majority of gays living in the US. yes, the supreme court finally gave us the right to fuck each other in the ass in the privacy of our own abodes. yes, there are states where we can get married and where our civil rights of partnership are recognized. yes, we have become a gigantic money-making contingent fueling the culture machine (for better or for worse, whatver).
STILL: the most at-risk group for teen suicide is homosexuals.
STILL: most of us gay men can't TRY to give blood because hey, we all have AIDS in the eyes of the FDA and AMA.
STILL: there are still licensed psychologists and psychiatrists who run 'reparative' practices in 'curing' homosexuality.
STILL: there is insane future-talk among conservative groups of using prospective gene-selection technology to essentially erase gay births from the face of the 1st world.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:08 (fifteen years ago) link
i think my point is that marriage and civil rights are a major issue, but they are not the end of it, and that i worry about some of the attitudes i've heard expressed in SF about everything finally being 'equal.' that's as stupid as saying that because we have a biracial president, racism is gonna magically end.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:10 (fifteen years ago) link
xp: And you don't think a world in which more people regard homosexuality as "normal" (so to say) will help to remedy any of those at least in part?
― The Reverend, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:13 (fifteen years ago) link
sure, but i object to the idea that marriage is the major normalizing force!
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:18 (fifteen years ago) link
Not the, but certainly a, whether you personally like it or not.
― The Reverend, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:19 (fifteen years ago) link
it surely will act like it, yes, but it just saddens me.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:19 (fifteen years ago) link
― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Thursday, April 9, 2009 8:49 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark
i can sympathize with this, but it veers into some uncomfortable territory, as far as i'm concerned. that is, it sounds perilously close to the "you shouldn't feel bad about your own life's disappointments because, you know, there are people starving in sudan" argument. which, of course, has many elements of truth, but is ultimately kind of bullshit
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Friday, 10 April 2009 02:37 (fifteen years ago) link
xp to gbx:
well, yeah. i think that my point (at least towards the bottom of this thread) is that there's still majorly awful shit going down against gays both in the US and especially elsewhere, and that a normalizing force such as marriage is not going to just swoop all those problems away. additionally, the oppression and subjugation that gays have faced since...well, since the Protestant Reformation, is also not some sort of societal antique that could never come back.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:43 (fifteen years ago) link
no i can appreciate that. btw i'm not sure how to dovetail this with those dancehall threads, but man i can't help but think they're......relevant?
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Friday, 10 April 2009 02:45 (fifteen years ago) link
i need to eat right now and go to the studio to finish a paper, but i just wanted to say that this thread has helped me rethink and change my opinions on some things, and that it has done so without getting overly insulting. so thanks for engaging.
― the table is the table, Friday, 10 April 2009 02:46 (fifteen years ago) link
the history of gays people with money 'claiming' a neighborhood and then gentrifying it is so long it would make your head spin
― Nurse Detrius (Eric H.), Friday, 10 April 2009 05:50 (fifteen years ago) link
Table has a point though in that it often starts with homosexes and sundry bohemians--who make it a desirable place to live--before the rich people roll in.
― HOOS talking about magic & spells & steen dude! (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 10 April 2009 05:59 (fifteen years ago) link
cf John Leland etc
― HOOS talking about magic & spells & steen dude! (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 10 April 2009 06:00 (fifteen years ago) link
Have you thought about the fact that the US is not the only country where gay marriage is an issue, there are several countries ie Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, South Africa and Sweden. The countries of those I've visited Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands, are really open countries where I did not notice the gated communities of Gays with Lexus'.
― Plaxico (I know, right?), Friday, 10 April 2009 10:18 (fifteen years ago) link
Also Table, just as I would not like to have rights not permitted to me for the religio-conservative mindset of others, I wouldn't like to be disenfranchised for you to live out you some Dennis Cooper fantasy of subversive fagdom.
― Plaxico (I know, right?), Friday, 10 April 2009 10:23 (fifteen years ago) link
i wonder if i should actually read this thread ever
― Surmounter, Friday, 10 April 2009 10:40 (fifteen years ago) link
xpgay marriage is legal in Sweden, it's just not clear yet whether or not it will be in church.
― sonderangerbot, Friday, 10 April 2009 10:40 (fifteen years ago) link
too zombified to read it :/
― FREE DOM AND ETHAN (special guest stars mark bronson), Friday, 10 April 2009 10:50 (fifteen years ago) link
haha, not that I'm the marryin' kind!
― Plaxico (I know, right?), Friday, 10 April 2009 11:32 (fifteen years ago) link
This has been dealt with sufficiently, right? No need for me to bring up arguments that have already been run? (I skim-read the thread after this.)
― maybe u should tell that to your laughing vagina (HI DERE), Friday, 10 April 2009 13:58 (fifteen years ago) link
pretty much iirc
― k3vin k., Friday, 10 April 2009 14:01 (fifteen years ago) link
gays should be working with the downtrodden and indigent, not trying to eliminate such from view for fear that they'll steal the modernist lamp-set in the trunk of the volvo.
http://cockingasnook.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/medium_umbridge.jpg
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 14:02 (fifteen years ago) link
As far as the idea that gays, as a group, are any more well-to-do than society as a whole, I already spelled it out in the gay thread:
I would assume this is due to the fact that it's much easier, due to cultural factors and a greater economic safety net, for economically advantaged queers to be openly so than for their economically disadvantaged counterparts. Thusly, in a set of openly queer people, the economically advantaged are going to be overrepresented.
― The-Reverend (rev), Friday, 10 April 2009 15:25 (fifteen years ago) link
fwiw, guys, you should attend to table's last comment iirc
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Friday, 10 April 2009 15:43 (fifteen years ago) link
group hug
― This Board is a Prison on Planet Bullshit (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 April 2009 15:53 (fifteen years ago) link
the conflict, in some ways, is that i think these rights are obvious and self-evident, and shouldn't even have to be bestowed by the state, as if they were some sort of gift.
i've heard far right/libertarian dudes say they were in favor of gay marriage because of this reason...or more specifically they were against the government controlling marriage and charging money for marriage licenses etc, therefore anyone could and should be able to get married.
― d20 riot tard (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 10 April 2009 15:59 (fifteen years ago) link
Nah, I gotta help the poor and indigent first.
JUST KIDDING (hugs, table)
― I'm crossing over into enterprise (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 10 April 2009 15:59 (fifteen years ago) link
I think its weird to argue that "rights" somehow exist independent of a legal framework.
― This Board is a Prison on Planet Bullshit (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 April 2009 16:00 (fifteen years ago) link
(x-post)
― This Board is a Prison on Planet Bullshit (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 April 2009 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link
I mean the law is the framework that gives the term "rights" meaning - without the ability to appeal to an agreed-upon legal framework, what constitutes a "right" is essentially meaningless.