2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

God, I wish Obama was an atheist.

So his candidacy could crash and burn? I don't get it.

Obama should give his next speech in whiteface

They may or mayn't have been defensible, but I don't think actions against Japan can be called 'terrorism'. They're called warfare.

To say that black people are the only people who feel this sort of anger and express it thusly is also intellectually shallow. You have to love America as an ideal a lot to express that much disappointment about how things actually are, and I don't recall Wright hating America, eh? It's not just Iraq that half of America has ambivalence about, it's seven years' worth of Bushista policy and the whipped cream and cherry on the top of that apple pie is the kneejerk patriotism.

They may or mayn't have been defensible, but I don't think actions against Japan can be called 'terrorism'. They're called warfare.

Exactly.

They may or mayn't have been defensible, but I don't think actions against Japan can be called 'terrorism'. They're called warfare.

-- Michael White, Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

The deliberate targetting of hundreds of thousands of civillians for direct attacks without even the pretense of a military target is terrorism.

Now I'd never suggest we sweep hundreds of years of slavery and racism under the rug, but haven't we reached a point now where ad hoc blaming of white America for every problem the poorer parts of the black community suffer from is just kind of nothing BUT inflammatory? The argument is more nuanced than that, and pretty much demands to be addressed at every occasion as such.

haven't we reached a point now where ad hoc blaming of white America for every problem the poorer parts of the black community suffer from is just kind of nothing BUT inflammatory?

A large part of Obama's candidacy is based on this premise; and, like I said, there's some facts bobbing in Wright's stew, but they're strung together into generalizations.

dropping the big bomb on civilans is not warfare by any stretch of the imagination

(I'm waiting for someone to quote Curtis Le May's war tribunal remark, made soon after dropping the bombs)

re: wright

if the clinton campaign really wants this to play -- and i maintain that it's not going to play a lot unless the clinton camp actually gets their hands in it, issues a statement about the "serious questions" it raises about obama's patriotism, bites on a pointed question from the press corp, whatever -- and then they run the risk of even more backlash and being perceived as being intentionally racially divisive. fox news will run with it, but i doubt clinton campaign is going to actively push this right now when ferarro's out there talkin' shit.

since 9/11 started the Terrah War, it musta been warfare

semantics, semantics

(re LeMay, I watched The Fog of War again last night -- is that we'd have been prosecuted if we'd lost?)

lotta people in this world would call 9/11 an act of "warfare"

This is a class issue, not a race issue. If you are flat-out poor you are more likely to be at the sharp end of the problems that Wright describes.

i guess i should add don't really care what it's called by the way-- warfare, terrorism, defending one's country, etc--it still was wrong

^^^ OTM

@suzy: Yeah, that's the argument I've always tried to make whenever someone says "I like all kinds of music...except for country and rap." Anyone who thinks the US doesn't have a class system is blind.

Mr Que has a good point. We are all usually ready to countenance rather vile stuff if we agree with the ends and we are usually ready to condemn other people's actions when we don't agree with their ends. But anyway, I'll not digress further since we have covered this topic at length in other threads.

It WILL be troublesome for Obama when he gets associated with it or asked to repudiate it later.

i hope the 'hes just my crazy uncle' defense is effective

Except that you don't choose your uncles, but you do choose which church to attend - presumably because something in the message appeals to you.

It is also good to hear what happens in 'segregated' space with a view to, y'know, addressing it and doing something positive to change 'the way things are'.

If you are part of what politicians condescendingly refer to as a 'community' you have traditionally gone to churches for the cohesion that is lacking elsewhere - and if you do not do so, there is a lot of pressure to join. Not all churches are conservative in their interpretation of belief. I'm glad Obama takes the values he does from his church but I consider his application and understanding are filtered through the mind of an intelligent person with free will and nuance.

McCain was the first person I ever heard refer to 9/11 as an act of war, and that was the moment when I realized everything was going to go really really wrong.

The Wright guy's a character, huh? Maybe he can join forces with Fred Phelps and Obama can sneak that evangelical vote right out from under John McCain's nose.

He really is not comparable to Fred Phelps.

I don't see what's so "indefensible" about his comments. Maybe they're a big misguided, and Obama should've told him to put a lid on it a while ago because I knew he would eventually say something to get him in trouble, but there are some valid arguments there. And to act as though race is not a factor and it's PURELY a class issue is just wrong and is just as ridiculous as saying it's purely racial. The fact of the matter black people have been systematically opessed for centuries, and still are in many ways.. it's far more subtle than it was a few decades ago, yes, but it STILL EXISTS.

the week after 9/11, I heard/read "act of war," "we're at war" CONSTANTLY in the media.

i'll go along with this, and i'll say it again: if the clinton camp pushes this, it'll play out like they're willing to go to any length to secure political advantage, even so far as to revise the racial history of the US.

xpost to brainwasher

are all churches this political in their sermons these days? i grew up catholic and they never talked about anything other than scripture then.

People in certain minorities do have to work twice as hard to get half as much, I'll agree, but in order to solve the problem without racially profiling its sufferers it's extremely important to have a discussion where class is at the wheel and race rides shotgun for a change. Obama's getting baited with this shit when he's perfectly capable of re-focusing discussion and turning it into a 'teaching moment'. Just sayin'.

ok why doesnt obama directly respond to ferraro by saying 'i didnt get where i am because i'm black, i got here because i'm AMERICAN' thus responding to both race baiting and patriot baiting w/ a cheap applause line that may actually be effective?

or is it bad to even acknowledge?

No, that would be good, mail them, OK?

i am applausing already

Hey Alfred! It looks like we're ever closer to our second vote this season. By mail, even!

are all churches this political in their sermons these days? i grew up catholic and they never talked about anything other than scripture then.

It probably depends on the congregation. After disavowing Catholicism when I was in high school, my parents and I went to a Unitarian church. And having had a positive experience there, I decided to try another Unitarian church when I got to college. I went once but didn't return because I didn't like how the sermon that week was basically "Re-elect Bill Clinton!!!" (admittedly, it was two days before Election Day) (also the fact that it was held in a high-school gymnasium was a big turn-off).

Hey Alfred! It looks like we're ever closer to our second vote this season. By mail, even!

I thought I read in this morning's NYT that Bill Nelson's plan was shot down.

I just saw footage on MSNBC of a pow wow in Tallahassee where they're trying to hammer out details.

I think the anger that Wright expresses in some of those statements is completely understandable and realistic, but unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that they do clash with the more unifying, conciliatory message that Obama is trying for. At some point these statements are going to make the news - if not now, then in the fall. Whether via a 527-organization Swift-Boating or a direct criticism from McCain's campaign, I think we can rest assured they will be aired. One possible net positive from these statements getting a full media airing is that by focusing attention on Obama's church, they could help to defuse the rumors that he's Muslim.

obama has fully disclosed all of his earmarks for his time in the senate:
link

Florida proposes June 3 Democratic primary re-vote

4 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) — Democratic party leaders in Florida are proposing a repeat presidential primary on June 3, according to a memo they sent to national party leaders and the two Democratic presidential hopefuls.

"We have reexamined every potential alternative again. Only one stands out as fair, open, practical and feasible at this time," said the March 12 memo, distributed to party leaders late Wednesday, according to the Politico website.

"We are positive that a combination vote-by-mail and in-person election can be conducted in the time available," the memo said.

It proposed a vote held June 3 at a cost of ten to 12 million dollars, though it did not address the contentious question of who would foot the bill.

National party leaders stripped Florida and Michigan of delegates to the Democratic National Convention because the two states violated party rules by moving the dates of their presidential primaries forward to January.

But the primaries were held regardless, even though Democratic presidential hopefuls largely respected pledges not to campaign in the two states.

Barack Obama and John Edwards, who has since dropped out of the race, had their names removed from the Michigan ballot.

Hillary Clinton won resounding victories in both states amid record voter turnout.

A staggering 1.75 million Democrats voted in Florida on January 29, with Clinton routing Obama 50 to 33 percent.

Even if Florida delegates are restored through a re-vote or some other mechanism, neither Clinton nor Obama appears likely to cross the finish line of 2,025 delegates needed to win the Democratic nomination.

But Democrats are haunted by the prospect of denying a voice to voters in Florida, the battleground state that controversially decided the 2000 election.

-----------------------------------------------------

Okay, looks like some kind of weird mail/polling booth mix. wtg Florida, can't we do anything that makes sense?

Obama could easily defuse this (if disingenuously): "I find great solace in the Rev. Wright's church. His political statements, however, are deplorable."

'deplorable' seems strong for TRUE FACTS that the public doesnt want to hear

Right – which is why I added the "disingenuous" tag.

one of Sully's readers sez to hell with the party:

Watching the Democrats self-immolate during this election, which should have been a slam-dunk for the party, has really made me question its abiity to lead this country at all, ever again. If someone, anyone, could explain to me how this party is fit to lead, please, let them explain. From its ineffectual performance in Congress since the midterms to its fratricidal primary warfare, the Dem party seems determined to prove that it has outlived its usefulness. Now, gifted with a candidate who represents a new start for the future--who offers an attempt to show the country how we can at least attempt to transcend the most divisive elements of racism, prejudice and partisanship (no, not get rid of them completely, but at least kick them a ways to the curb in the name of progress and solving this country's very serious current challenges), it has instead chosen a fight to the death to re-install a desperate, discredited monarchy that is taking refuge in the last century's cultural and identity wars.

What the hell?

And where is the party's leadership? Cowering in the shadows. Unlike the Republicans, who are at least attempting to unite around their candidate and present a grown-up face--and whose candidates were Emily Posts compared to the Clintons in their effort to maintain some of the party's dignity during the primaries--too many Dem leaders are standing around watching this ridiculous spectacle hands in pockets.

Gore? Edwards? Biden? Richardson? If they really backed the Clintons they'd have said so by now, but rather than come out and stand up for the future, they're hedging their bets. Hoping for Cabinet posts? The Republican drop outs, meanwhile, immediately moved to unity, endorsing McCain quickly.

Dems will say this is healthy. Democracy is messy! Oh, please. Maybe it WAS healthy. Now it's just nuts. No offense to the Palestinians, but you know that saying that "they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?" Well, the Dems have become the Palestinians of U.S. politics.

This election will signal the end of my identification as a Democrat. I've had it. And I can't imagine I'm alone in thinking and feeling this way. Can't the party see this?

on point

no offense to the palestinians

Clinton campaign to respond to Obama's vote suspending earmarks for a full year: "Obama has clearly demonstrated his aversion to pork barrel spending. You know who else hates pork? Muslims, that's who."

I'm only a Dem in primary season. By the time of the GE, I'm unaffiliated again. Every time.

Wish I lived in a state with open primary voting.

I don't think there's nothing to Hillary's electability arguments, but I'm glad she feels the need to divide the party in scorched-earth fashion to avoid taking a risk on Obama so that we can take a risk on her.

Drudge or the Clinton campaign could easily get the headline: "OBAMA MINISTER: 'GOD DAMN AMERICA'" -- but, again, the pre-Internet Rove strategies of the past have assumed that people won't look up the facts and context behind the statement and it wouldn't necessarily get traction in 2008 the way it would have in 2000.

Wait - where did these verbatim quotes of the guys sermons come from? Why was anyone recording them?

people record sermons all of the time