well i was bothered when they yelled at me and called me derogatory names when i walked around wearing a yarmulke
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:05 (ten years ago)
i mean i'm not really bothered atm since i haven't seen or heard from them - they don't have much of a presence in bala cynwyd
there is a difference between crazy people who yell at you sometimes and people who have actually appropriated your identity
society does not accept them as jewish and there's nothing you could do to make society not think you are jewish
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:07 (ten years ago)
that's what i was trying to say - the borrowing of jewish ideas + practices really does not bother me at all. it's only when it becomes a part of an antagonistic denial of identity that it bothers me. and there it's mostly the antagonism (tho trying to talented mr. riply a religion is nagl).
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:08 (ten years ago)
there are a whole bunch of "black jewish" groups -- marvin gaye's dad was a minister in one such congregation. there isn't much that the various churches (or temples) have in common other than claiming jewish identity.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:10 (ten years ago)
i mean, some are black nationalist, others have tried to petition israel to allow them citizenship, others are really off the deep end.... it's all over the place, much like all the many diverse penetecostal black churches that have all kinds of traditions, identites, etc. in fact i think you could see the "black jew" movement (if it is that) as being a kind of unexpected outgrowth of a certain eccentric strain of black protestantism.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:12 (ten years ago)
and then there's the rastafarians which sort of fit in there.
anyway.
yes - there are some wonderful black israelite groups that are not extremist at all including one in Dimona. that's where this guy is from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXBRMYT3dWs
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:13 (ten years ago)
also this album which is fantastic:http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/11481-soul-messages-from-dimona/
good piece here on the theme: http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2015/11/09/all-saints-day/
1) The concepts of appropriation and ownership. This is where moves are being made that are at least potentially reactionary and may in fact lead to the cultural and social confinement or restriction of everyone, including people of color, women, GLBQT people, and so on. In some forms, the argument against appropriation is closely aligned with dangerous kinds of ethnocentrism and ultra-nationalism, with ideas about purity and exclusivity. It can serve as the platform for an attack on the sort of cosmopolitan and pluralistic society that many activists are demanding the right to live within. Appropriation in the wrong institutional hands is a two-edged sword: it might instruct an “appropriator” to stop wearing, using or enacting something that is “not of their culture”, but it might also require someone to wear, use and enact their own “proper culture”.When I have had students read Frederick Lugard’s The Dual Mandate in British Tropical Africa, which was basically the operator’s manual for British colonial rule in the early 20th Century, one of the uncomfortable realizations many of them come to is that Lugard’s description of the idea of indirect rule sometimes comes close to some forms of more contemporary “politically correct” multiculturalism. Strong concepts of appropriation have often been allied with strong enforcement of stereotypes and boundaries. “Our culture is these customs, these clothing, this food, this social formation, this everyday practice: keep off” has often been quickly reconfigured by dominant powers to be “Fine: then if you want to claim membership in that culture, please constantly demonstrate those customs, clothing, food, social formations and everyday practices–and if you don’t, you’re not allowed to claim membership”.And then further, “And please don’t demonstrate other customs, clothing, food, social formations and everyday practices: those are for other cultures. Stick to where you belong.” I recall a friend of mine early in our careers who was told on several occasions during her job searches that since she was of South Asian descent, she’d be expected to formally mentor students from South Asia as well as Asian-Americans, neither of which she particularly identified with. I can think of many friends and colleagues who have identified powerfully with a particular group or community but who do not dress as or practice some of what’s commonly associated with that group.What’s being called appropriation in some of the current activist discourses is how culture works. It’s the engine of cultural history, it’s the driver of human creativity. No culture is a natural, bounded, intrinsic and unchanging thing. A strong prohibition against appropriation is death to every ideal of human community except for a rigidly purified and exclusionary vision of identity and membership.
When I have had students read Frederick Lugard’s The Dual Mandate in British Tropical Africa, which was basically the operator’s manual for British colonial rule in the early 20th Century, one of the uncomfortable realizations many of them come to is that Lugard’s description of the idea of indirect rule sometimes comes close to some forms of more contemporary “politically correct” multiculturalism. Strong concepts of appropriation have often been allied with strong enforcement of stereotypes and boundaries. “Our culture is these customs, these clothing, this food, this social formation, this everyday practice: keep off” has often been quickly reconfigured by dominant powers to be “Fine: then if you want to claim membership in that culture, please constantly demonstrate those customs, clothing, food, social formations and everyday practices–and if you don’t, you’re not allowed to claim membership”.
And then further, “And please don’t demonstrate other customs, clothing, food, social formations and everyday practices: those are for other cultures. Stick to where you belong.” I recall a friend of mine early in our careers who was told on several occasions during her job searches that since she was of South Asian descent, she’d be expected to formally mentor students from South Asia as well as Asian-Americans, neither of which she particularly identified with. I can think of many friends and colleagues who have identified powerfully with a particular group or community but who do not dress as or practice some of what’s commonly associated with that group.
What’s being called appropriation in some of the current activist discourses is how culture works. It’s the engine of cultural history, it’s the driver of human creativity. No culture is a natural, bounded, intrinsic and unchanging thing. A strong prohibition against appropriation is death to every ideal of human community except for a rigidly purified and exclusionary vision of identity and membership.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:21 (ten years ago)
best argument for cultural appropriation: banh mi
(or hell: noodles!)
― wizzz! (amateurist), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:28 (ten years ago)
I think the particular form of appropriation at issue probably draws from Edward Said's "Orientalism"-- which is to say a form of appropriation that's inextricable from colonialism etc. But I think what gets lost is that Said was going in for something very specific and not just cultural exchange per se.
― ryan, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:57 (ten years ago)
orientalism precedes colonialism
― welltris (crüt), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:59 (ten years ago)
I studied Orientalism in grad school and tbh I found it pretty unpersuasive. I'd have to open it back up to give exact references but iirc I felt that he drew very broad conclusions from a very small subset of scholars and then extrapolated from them to much larger trends in society - none of which had a very cohesive or coherent thoroughline. nb I know that criticizing Said is blasphemous in the modern academy but I wouldn't be surprised if a poor understanding of culture emerged from that particular text.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 19:59 (ten years ago)
oh I think he's criticized a lot actually! not my field though so someone could better say how that text is received these days. was just speculating on the intellectual roots of a certain idea of cultural appropriation.
― ryan, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:13 (ten years ago)
oh! fair enough. i remember when he died Critical Inquiry did an entire issue on him that bordered of the hagiographic which led me to believe that the academy was pretty infatuated. if there's more critical pushback that's wonderful.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:14 (ten years ago)
yeah i think there's a distinction (not necc even a subtle one) between cultural exchange, sharing, borrowing, and what's called "appropriation" -- but also agreed that not everyone using the latter term has probably thought that thru v. fully.
i actually also think that the criticism of said is nearly all (with some notable exceptions like aijaz ahmad) within a generally hagiographic narrative -- i.e. he made important contributions _but_.
Btw the jewish prohabition that i didn't know existed/was respected until very recently is Shatnez. especially impressed by the fact that there seem to be conflicting theories on why this came about, and there's no clear correct answer.
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:29 (ten years ago)
FWIW I have been exposed to the various weird Jewish identity denial stuff (including via Nation of Islam, Black Hebrews, afrocentrism and various random people on social media, often, I think, posting from Arab countries where there is a political interest in denying that Ashkenazi Jews are "real" Jews).
I don't think it has much to do with appropriation though, in the sense that we're discussing it.
I was once randomly stopped on the street by a Nation of Islam guy handing out Daily Caller newspapers. He goes "Jewish John!" And I'm like, "Uh, what? Do I know you? My name isn't John." (was not wearing a yarmulke or jewish star or anything like that, fwiw). And he goes "I called you Jewish John, because you're a Johnny-come-lately Jew."
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:30 (ten years ago)
xp when i was in yeshiva there used to be a tailor with expertise in shatnez who would visit all the yeshivas and check the student's suits for shatnez (and remove it if necessary). he also ran a side business in giving people the opportunity to do shiluach ha-ken (chasing away the mother bird). he was like a maven in exotic mitzvot.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:38 (ten years ago)
yeah i learned about it because my friend went to a tailor who advertised shatnez compliance and was baffled.
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:41 (ten years ago)
it's related to the prohibition against cross-breeding, both of which are considered chokim in jewish law aka laws that are suprarational and we don't know the reason for (by contrast w/ eidot or symbolic laws like Passover, or mishpatim - laws that are rational like no murder).
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:44 (ten years ago)
Superstitious belief in "purity" maybe? That's found in a lot of religions.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:46 (ten years ago)
the quintessential chok is actually directly related to the laws of purity - it's the ritual sacrifice of the red heiffer to use its ashes to remove impurity from people. the actual verse says "these are the chokim (laws) of the torah" and then goes into the red heifer. i once asked my rosh yeshiva why it says "of the torah" when we're reading the torah and surely we realize these aren't the laws of the new testament of the qur'an and he quoted his father who said that when it says "of the torah" it means that this law teaches us a general rule about the essential nature of the torah. in this case it's that the person who sprinkles the ashes of the red heifer becomes impure, while the person being sprinkled on becomes pure. which teaches us that the holiest thing a person can do is to make themselves impure in order to purify their fellow. i always thought that was a lovely explanation.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:50 (ten years ago)
that sounds similar to some hindu customs, where the cow is sacred but people butchering cows are tainted by their approximation to death
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:55 (ten years ago)
er.... not butchering, but dealing w dead cows by the side of the road and such
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 20:56 (ten years ago)
feel like we shd be more careful conflating the way black & jewish ppl occupy different roles in structure of american society when making these pronouncements
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Tuesday, 24 November 2015 23:04 (ten years ago)
striking to me how religion just isn't the hateful divider it used to be in the states. netflix is our lord now:
The EEOC released fiscal year 2014 private sector data tables providing detailed breakdowns for the 88,778 charges of workplace discrimination the agency received. The fiscal year ran from Oct. 1, 2013, to Sept. 30, 2014.
The following are the top 10 categories of charges filed with the EEOC:
Retaliation under all statutes: 37,955 (42.8 percent of all charges filed)Race (including racial harassment): 31,073 (35 percent)Sex (including pregnancy and sexual harassment): 26,027 (29.3 percent)Disability: 25,369 (28.6 percent)Age: 20,588 (23.2 percent)National Origin: 9,579 (10.8 percent)Religion: 3,549 (4.0 percent)Color: 2,756 (3.1 percent)Equal Pay Act: 938 (1.1 percent) but note that sex-based wage discrimination can also be charged under Title VII’s sex discrimination provisionGenetic Information Non-Discrimination Act: 333 (0.4 percent)
― scott seward, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 23:20 (ten years ago)
https://newrepublic.com/article/124303/think-campus-pc-control-look-military?utm_medium=social&utm_source=nfrb&utm_campaign=2050
― balls, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 01:41 (ten years ago)
so the community members at the college radio station asked maria to be the new community rep at the station and the students scrambled to find someone else to nominate but maria was voted in and tonight another student told maria that the student's plan was to get up and walk out of the meeting if maria won. because they hate her and don't feel safe around her because she is old and questions their actions. but maria gave a good speech and they chickened out. she is like the norma rae for the olds.
the students have antagonized all the fogeys. even the polka people. they had fundraising recently and raised about 35 thousand for the station. over 30 grand of that came from the polka listeners. why you would want to upset those people - who are amazing and have the most popular shows by far - is beyond me.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 03:50 (ten years ago)
Good for Maria! She'll be awesome.
― EZ Snappin, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 04:00 (ten years ago)
"students' plan" that should read. not the student who told her that. ALL the student management was going to walk out. which i thought would actually be kinda cool because i love drama...
― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 November 2015 04:02 (ten years ago)
i love the idea that the station is totally reliant for fundraising on an hour-long polka show! that is comedy gold.
(kind of like how the local public TV station here plays 'lawrence welk' during sweeps week! make fun of it if you will, but people watch that shit.)
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 26 November 2015 05:35 (ten years ago)
http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/11/24/the-yale-problem-begins-in-high-school/
basically dying at the idea of this guy arguing about the power of adversity and speaking freely and mocking "safe spaces" and "play-doh" etc having a freakout at snapping
"I had never heard the snapping before. When it happens in a large auditorium it is disconcerting. It makes you feel that you are facing an angry and unified mob — a feeling I have never had in 25 years of teaching and public speaking."
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:52 (ten years ago)
like he actually encounters disagreement and just panics
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:53 (ten years ago)
did we follow the whole 48-hour cycle wherein everyone decided that millenials hate free speech and then oops actually no they don't, not any more than anyone else?
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:54 (ten years ago)
also its interesting how he traces all this stuff back (in the link to his talk) to marcuse. wow he harbors a grudge.
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:55 (ten years ago)
also it's notable how often college teachers blame one thing or other about their students on their high school educations, but so many of us have only the dimmest idea of what high school education is like these days.
these complaints definitely have that eternal "kids these days..." quality, where you can impute almost anything to "the trouble with education these days" when you're actually just projecting your own confusions and resentments etc.
( sterling btw i'm sorry that i've insulted you a bunch of times in the past few months. i've been real stressed out IRL and sometimes my posts have a nasty edge that i regret. )
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:57 (ten years ago)
also high school educations is so wildly diverse! there are all kinds of schools and students have all kinds of experiences there. that's not to say there aren't national trends in education -- there are. but i've found that generalizations about students' backgrounds/experiences in high school don't usually withstand a ton of scrutiny. even the usual carping about a generation raised on too many standardized exams...
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 26 November 2015 06:59 (ten years ago)
i think ppl learn a lot on tumblr
― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Thursday, 26 November 2015 07:05 (ten years ago)
i realize this is totally obvious almost to the point of satire but its true
That's the fear alright
― MONKEY had been BUMMED by the GHOST of the late prancing paedophile (darraghmac), Thursday, 26 November 2015 07:39 (ten years ago)
Good protest
https://youtu.be/HKVTE9Vj5uA
― impossible raver (Re-Make/Re-Model), Thursday, 26 November 2015 16:45 (ten years ago)
This thread has wandered into my wheelhouse. I'm a HS civics teacher and I sponsor an after school LGBT+ student group. A lot of the students in the group are definitely using Twitter and tumblr to learn about social justice issues more broadly which I think is pretty important to be able to connect with other people like themselves about their experiences.
The handwringing in the article linked above...like I get that academic cultures in these rarefied private school environments skew a particular way, but the idea that this is part of some wider trend which threatens free speech and social justice warriors are running amok, it's a bit precious to me. The vast majority of K-12 spaces are still very traditional, and students are tacitly expected to endure racism, sexist, homophobia, transportation, etc as part of the background of their day to day lives.
― Rich Homie Quan Poor Homie Quan (m bison), Thursday, 26 November 2015 17:19 (ten years ago)
Ugh, should say transphobia but autocorrect
― Rich Homie Quan Poor Homie Quan (m bison), Thursday, 26 November 2015 17:20 (ten years ago)
I was reading Far from the Tree by Andrew Solomon again and this seems to fit here:
http://s18.postimg.org/vn8t5u761/far_from_the_tree.jpg
― The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Thursday, 26 November 2015 20:54 (ten years ago)
Meaning if schools, colleges, whatever, are undergoing this conflict between speech and identity and the status quo, it's because our society at large undergoing that struggle.
― The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Thursday, 26 November 2015 20:55 (ten years ago)
Destroy someone's self-esteem enough, and every punch feels like punching up.
― Three Word Username, Thursday, 26 November 2015 23:15 (ten years ago)
He punched up at me; it felt like a kiss
― big WHOIS aka the nameserver (s.clover), Friday, 27 November 2015 00:18 (ten years ago)
'punch up' most #1 confusing term of our era imo
― The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Friday, 27 November 2015 00:28 (ten years ago)
i say as one who has read way too many interviews with people hired to 'punch up' screenplays
― The Fart in Our Stalls (Abbott), Friday, 27 November 2015 00:29 (ten years ago)