What can you tell me about Autism?

OK, I have just d/l the Silberman book because on that description it seems untainted with SBC BS. Also my Dad knows him and says he is a Very Smart Bloke so I'll give it a try. I just didn't want the very first book I read about Autism to be specious bullshit.

The "no empathy" thing was a sticking point for me, for a long, long time. And that is highly gendered, because we are all taught from birth that Women are the Empathising Sex and if you are female you will be much more highly penalised for not performing empathy. No empathy? Are you calling me a Failed Girl again? But also, like, the dictionary definition of Empathy, I *can* totally do that (I can't always do it at *speed*, in a conversation, and I am not very good at expressing it in appropriate ways). But actually reading that Triad of Impairments, from the point of view of other Aspies, and the stuff that is missing or impaired - it was just such a revelation, both in terms of explaining why I am really bad at the stuff I am terrible at, but also filing in gaps of "you mean some people can *do* that?" Sometimes when you have one of those kinds of impairments, you're not even aware of it as an impairment because it just does not exist. How can you tell if you have a blind spot if you have never seen it?

Also there is still so much stuff that is so gendered, in terms of social skills and "do you know when it is your turn to speak in a conversation?" has different *weights* for a woman speaking to a man, and a woman speaking to a woman. How do I recognise when I'm just being Bad At Conversation because I suck at the rhythm of turn-taking, and how do I know when A Man is just not ceding the conversation because he's a sexist pig who interrupts women?

I do have a quite good feeling for what the maths-systems-logic form of intelligence is, but the idea of putting it at the end of a continuum with "Empathy" at the opposite end is just... I am going to make a little joke now so please no one get offended, but this is just the kind of non-logic total fail of sense that ~neurotypicals~ seem to do and then call it a social convention and call you rude if you don't go along with their crazy-talk. Just... waht. No.

Silberman's defense of Asberger -- at least as glossed by Baron, for whom German seems to be an unknowably obscure language -- is seriously weak. I would like to say more, but the thread has moved on.

I have a real issue with the concept of "social skills", which seem to me completed loaded with social convention and reinforcing social norms (especially around everyone 'knowing their place' in groups and in the workplace).

As someone who self-idententifies on the Asperger's scale, I prefer to say that I can understand "social skills" - but can't always be bothered with them.

Michael Foley's book 'The Age of Absurdity' has a good section of absurdity in the workplace and how there's culture of work banter and professional 'humour' which is used to reinforce social norms:

Professional Humour (PH), a more sophisticated form of Professional Cheeriness (PC), is the key core competency, a universal facilitator and lubricant, but confusing to the untrained because, although the jokes must always be rewarded by hearty laughter, they must never be actually funny. This is because Professional Humour is not humour but facetiousness. Humour is a way of engaging with reality; facetiousness is a way of evading it. For instance, Professional Humour should always sound wickedly subversive while offering no threat whatever.

Established Colleague (withhearty roar): ‘Are you behaving yourself?’
New Colleague (lamely, not yet facetiousness-trained): ‘Yes.’
Established Colleague (with even heartier roar): ‘What a shame!’

And it should sound like savage abuse while remaining entirely innocuous.

Can't we find some more interesting ways to use our social skills?

(sorry for the rant)

Sorry, but it took me a couple of goes to parse your posts, and I'm still not entirely sure I've got it.

Partly because "can't be bothered to" is a real bugbear for me. Like, i have been accused, my entire life, WRT social cues, of people insisting that I am playing "can't be bothered" or "won't" when it was actually a "honestly, genuinely, just can't". And part of working with a therapist has been not just taking the tests, but going through the matrices of symptoms and patterns of how Asperger's manifests, and separating out the "can't" pile from the "won't" pile.

I think you may be talking about a different thing when you say "social skills" to what I would mean by "social skills". And also, social *skills* - they key is in the name. They are things that everyone, neurotypicals and autists, have to learn and master, though it's easier and more instinctive for neurotypicals because it's easier to learn a dance when you can "hear the music". Social skills, as I understand them (I may be wrong! I suck at this stuff!) are techniques people use to avoid being rude to other people, and to lubricate social interactions and make them smoother and easier for everyone involved. Social skills are like saying please and thank you and offering biscuits around before helping yourself and setting boundaries and recognising other people's boundaries and working out how to stay on the right side of them.

The kind of humour you're talking about, social ritual and social dominance... I don't *get* 90% of "humour", especially of the kind you describe. That kind of humour is basically cruelty as used to establish and maintain a social hierarchy, and to establish and maintain in groups and out groups as a kind of bonding humiliation ritual. I don't get that stuff. I don't understand it. It's not even "I can't be bothered with that" so much as "that's awful, and I don't want to be associated with that kind of awfulness." (Not to mention, the few times I've attempted to participate, I've messed it up and got it horribly wrong, to the point where the people I've tried to play those games with have had reactions not of "OK, that's funny" but "OMG, Branwell, that's *awful*!" OK, how am I supposed to tell the difference between awful and funny, because it all just seems awful to me?) I don't file that under "social skills" but under "interpersonal politics" which instantly engages my "avoid! avoid!" mode.

unfortunately some people think that not participating in that "in group/out group" meanness/banter/whatever is an act of rudeness in itself, which can make for more hidden pitfalls. you're right about learning to dance - no human is innately good at learning social codes, and there's a lot of degrees of awkwardness and just plain getting things wrong amongst neurotypical people too. which all adds to the potential horribleness of social interaction.

I'm not sure i have the energy to read through long complicated posts but girls that act both girly and maley is attractive

Kind of people you want to slap and pet at the same time

Dont mind me, i'll see myself out

Well here's a short post for you: FUCK. OFF.

maybe a post for the tyranny of humour but I'm someone who absolutely could not get from a to b socially without that particular motor, and I subscribe 100% to that deathless dlh post in that thread, and even so smh forever at ppl who come over truculent at ppl who can't or won't navigate this mode, like if the former is "tone deaf" the latter must be tone deaf dumb blind and stupid

i find myself regularly gently explaining to people at work that it's fine if banter is their default mode of professional communication but they shd at least have a think about whether the people they're using it on have got a clue what they mean by it

Like when i told my extremely religious coworker that zombies are real and I have proof. A little guy by the name of Jesus Christ. Then another coworker piped in about the resurrection of JC or something. I was sweating in my seat but luckily the extremely religious guy said "haha I get it. That's funny".

What a relief

Im a self-proclaimed absurdist and absurd humorist so i know a thing or too about the topics on hand when im not being slimey. But i like to think of myself as a cute slimeball if that makes anything better.

please go away

If ever there was a time for multiple fp's it is now

You are right, I should go away. But I do feel at home in autistic threads for whatever reason.

The science of gender is and will always be offensive. As far as I'm concerned, gender is a word that has lost all meaning because it's always dependent on context.

-

I'm offensive for different reasons and I do wholeheartedly apologize.

Anyways *uck gender. We should all be gender-less slimes and the world will be a better place.

Gender science is a rabbit-hole that only leads to nonsense.

You weren't making a controversial argument about gender and brain structure though, you were just being a fuck

Yes, I was talking with my sexual organs and that's what I am apologizing for.

I banned the Once-ler from this thread as their contributions really didn't seem helpful + got multiple flag posts. Hope that's okay with you guys/not too much of a mod abuse of power.

I was hoping for a 3-day sitewide, at minimum.

i have a feeling nature will take its course...

I've only seen the stuff on this thread and made a call on it being disruptive/douchey but not nec. part of a larger pattern - maybe make a Moderator Request Forum thread if you think it merits further action so as not to further sideline the interesting discussion on here? (NB not speaking as "voice of the mods" here, just my own take, willing to hear out other views.)

v good call mod

Thank you

figured this revive was going to be about this case -- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/magazine/the-strange-case-of-anna-stubblefield.html?_r=0

there are some interesting issues re: consent, validity of sexual needs of disabled people, etc that i've seen touched upon elsewhere, but given that facilitated communication is so thoroughly discredited i'm not sure they're directly applicable here. woman is a straight up abuser and deserves the time she's gonna get

(btw I know the person in question is not autistic, but some of the same issues are raised re caring for profoundly disabled people that make it maybe appropriate for this thread )

For once, it would be great if, when mods saw a dude come in a thread, and pound his dick all over his keyboard and derail and borderline harass women in that space, that we did *not* have to start a mod request thread, and expose ourselves to the rubber-necking meta-banter of every board lawyer with an axe to grind while we make a case for our humanity and right to have a conversation without some asshole butting in and telling us his dick has opinions on our gender presentations and what it would like to do to them.

It would be nice if for once, a mod stood up and said "this is not how we treat women" and "behaving like this is not tolerated, and has actual consequences".

But no, today is not that day. (It is never going to be that day, huh.)

No, you're entirely right, you shouldn't have to do that. As it stands, no Mod Request thread has been started and it shouldn't be necessary. On this occasion (unless a mod was actively reading this thread) it looks like the Flag Post function did its job. If there was a slow response then apologies, that may be down to it having been Sunday afternoon.

Having looked at the user info, the poster in question is Captain Lorax, who received a permanent sitewide ban three years ago. Judging by his enthusiastic requoting of his terrible earlier posts on the Confederate Flag thread, this sort of behaviour absolutely IS part of a larger pattern and I don't see any reason why that ban shouldn't be upheld.

I thought that Lorax's sitewide ban from 3 years ago was self requested?

mods request

The plot thickens.

my son wandered off from the Co-op whilst I was in the queue tonight, the queue was only one deep and normally he just plays with the dog who is tied outside whilst i pay. He is 13 and non-verbal and with very poor spatial awareness around traffic and extremely vulnerable. After running in various directions in panic mode I went into the PC shop next to the Co-op and phoned the police and then ran almost a quarter marathon looking for him and went back to the Co-op, where their staff had discerned from the PC shop guy what was going on and were checking the CCTV footage. Then whilst I was running about the area like a maniac the police phoned me and asked me to return to the Co-op to identify my son on the CCTV footage and then go home, because they can't send out the search helicopter until they have checked he isn't at my house. I was in a bad state at this point and severely dehydrated, then he said we have a 100 officers on this, so go home. In my state I said "Bullshit" but there actually was shitloads of police in the area.

They found him on the edge of a neighbouring estate near the local high school about half an hour later. I actually hugged the copper who told me, whilst properly losing all remaining dignity and he was a big bastard and looked quite awkward!

I am glad I didn't hesitate to ring the police because they did a fucking amazing job. I am just glad his mum wasn't home and was at the local Town Hall when it happened. She went to a meeting about local A+E hospital closures and all I get is "I'm away for 5 minutes and this happens". But she is quite ill right now and the stress would have been bad.

I am looking into tracking chips tomorrow, because this is not happening again.

Jesus. Glad it turned out OK. Hope you get over the shock quickly.

I still can't sleep tbh, but at least in a good sort of elated and relieved manner, but jeez, Fuck me, what an evening.

On the positive side - what I did right was not hesitating calling the police and explaining his level of vulnerability well to them. At least that is the victory I am giving myself tonight, it still could have ended bad.

it's horribly easy for this kind of thing to happen, try not to make yourself feel bad about it dude, glad it turned out fine.

seems like you did exactly the right thing but fuck that must have been scary. was he ok after too? hope you get some sleep at some point

He was more than fine and in quite a giddy mood, it was all just a lark to him. Whilst I was giving the police a statement he was doing an opportunist kitchen raid on his rationed supplies of crisps and nutella, which is standard behaviour. Hitting the shiraz at 3am helped with the insomnia but oh dear I'm feeling rough as today, but still quite overwhelmed at the feeling of relief.

Today his school are going to try and teach him a social story about the dangers of his type of adventurism, hopefully some of that will stick to him.

damn man. that's some tough parenting hurdles.

We call him Notorious Al now, because since that incident he keeps getting recognised by different police officers throughout town. I still need to sort out some kind of GPS tracking device in case it ever happens again, I know it is built into most smartphones but that isn't really practical.

On Sunday we were out walking the dog and I took him back to where he was found by the police to see if there was any reason why he was drawn to that area. He seemed very interested in the hissing noise from the gas distribution point and one of the houses had a large pigeon coop in the garden. As odd as it sounds little things like this are a major attraction for him.

can see that. interesting noises and other sensory stimuli are definitely a big attraction to some autistic kids.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/police-appeal-trace-vulnerable-boy-10889818

"David also likes travelling on the transport network and, when missing before, has been found on buses and trains." Hopefully this kid will be sat on a bus somewhere rather than finding danger, that love of travelling on buses and trains is so ASD typical.

Since Alex had his own adventure I keep googling these missing kid with autism stories. The frequency of this happening and the amount of times it ends badly says to me that GPS trackers should be essential safety equipment for ASD kids. Not that I have found a practical option yet, there is probably a massive gap in the market here for entrepreneur types.

could you put it on a belt buckle? Or sole of a shoe? These are probably stupid things for me to suggest but it's what occurs to me.

http://www.wareable.com/internet-of-things/the-best-kids-trackers

The problem with the watch/bracelet type devices is that ASD people often have an aversion to wearing things. PocketFinder looks quite good but rather expensive, although it does looks rugged and fit for purpose. I am going to read up on some of cheaper devices first, see how reliable they are.

Glad to read that the kid from Hounslow has been found free from harm in Westminster this morning.

i think the best bet would be something somehow stitched into favourite items of clothing but i don't know how big the tracker needs to be, assuming real life is not the same as James Bond

one guy i knew used to wear a jumpsuit with parents' phone number very visible on the back

Yeah labels with contact details are always a good idea and so are jumpsuits! Most of the GPS devices seem to be pocket sized but they do require charging. It seems some of the cheaper ones require a sim-card and send back their current location when you phone them and some require you to pay an annual subscription for online services. Some of these devices have Voice surveillance built in, that seems a bit creepy and indecent tbh - especially when it is a concealed device.

I heard some self-congratulatory beeb cack about The A Word on R4 today. Not watched it (and don't intend to either) and just expect it to be The Archers with some added hand wringing about cute-non-verbal-boy, boo-hoo, type trite shit like you expect the BBC to produce ad nauseam. I am not expecting them to portray the diversity of people on the autism spectrum, like young adults, middle aged people or women, or perhaps people not from model middle class families. Or even the diversity of the autism spectrum. No, not the fucking BBC, they are obv going to go down the standard cute m/c boy trope and then pat themselves on the back for being myopic, mediocre, condescending twats afterwards.

I know this lady who works in the local Asda who has two children with autism. One of them has ADHD running with it, one of them has a form of Tourette's running with it and her husband also has a diagnosis of Tourette's Syndrome. She always says she only works there for some time out, but she says it without a trace of self pity but I can see in her eyes, a kind of jadedness/ennui that I understand.

One of the bits I caught from R4 today was that the Eccleston character in The A Word says something cringeworthy like "The boy is broken, we need to fix him". GTf back into yr Tardis, you fucking hack eejit!

Sorry, I have had a few beers and have been arguing with my partner about this shite and needed to vent.

sure thing!

i am feeling overwhelmed right now. we are considering a move to be closer to my family but the area where we might relocate seems to have a somewhat substantially lower level of services available than where we are now. my son is in a good place where we live, the inclusion school where he's at is pretty amazing, somehow, especially for a school in a huge urban public school system, and we have a lot of private therapists and groups w/ whom we've built good relationships, we feel pretty established w/ his services right now, so we don't want to leave that, but we are also faced w/ a fucking insane cost of living here which is not sustainable for us in the long term. we are looking into the services available in the city we might move to and they are just not at the level we'd want even if it is way cheaper to live there.

also we just got back from a family trip and my son, who is pretty high-functioning especially when well-rested & well-fed, was just totally overstimulated by all the new people & places, he had a great time but there way more challenging moments & tantrums then we're used to, he pretty much didn't want to be around me in any way and that was super hard

marcos i'm sorry, that must feel awful when your kid willfully blanks you out, you're right tho about overstimulation being the big distractor.

if you're in the uk please ilxmail me, i've got a few organizations i could suggest that are v. helpful. if you're not here then go ahead and chat anyway, on this thread or privately, there are definitely enough posters here with experience and knowledge who have important stuff to stay

xp
Yeah, I know where you are coming from and whenever you feel like your inner psyche has become sufficiently calloused up to deal with various difficult behaviours, they have this tendency to take you out of your comfort zone!

The first time my son started getting violent was bleakly depressing, but now I can deal with it a lot better than I did a few years ago. There never seems to be many comfort zones between these increments of getting used to stuff, but that seems to be the case with many things in life.

Good support vs sustainable cost of living is a real difficult one, GL with it.

yowza, marcos - sorry you're going through that. Sympathies.

I've done some of the same math in my head - lower cost-of-living, but fewer services provided - so I empathize with you. Hard decisions all around.

For us, I know we're paying a lot to live where we do (CoL, taxes, etc.), but we simultaneously feel fortunate that so much care is provided as a matter of course. Some time ago I had a little a-ha moment of connecting all these "free" services to the exorbitant tax bill and cost of living, but I know it isn't as simple a tradeoff for everyone.