This is like discovering that the pope is catholic.
Personally, I appreciate the fact that, although Francis accepts the prevailing dogmas about abortion, contraception and homosexuality, he has taken steps to de-emphasize them as important issues for the church, as compared to pursuing its primary mission of compassion for the poor, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and charity toward all. This strikes me as the most sensible path he could take, given that changing those dogmas would be highly unrealistic. He might have a bit of wiggle room on ordination for women and marriage for priests, but that would result in fighting a civil war inside the church.
― Aimless, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:29 (eight years ago) link
tbh there's something a bit rich about american liberals criticizing the pope over his failure in this one particular department considering that barack obama and hillary clinton both opposed same-sex marriage till three years ago.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.
pretty sure I and many others criticized HRC (those initials are so perfect) and Obama for this too
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:37 (eight years ago) link
Not only is Aimless OTM, but any other view is childish.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:40 (eight years ago) link
a jesuit tries to make sense of the papal visit with davis, somewhat apologetically
http://papalvisit.americamedia.org/2015/09/30/the-pope-and-kim-davis-seven-points-to-keep-in-mind/
― goole, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:42 (eight years ago) link
davis's lawyers recently had to fess up that no, a picture taken of a massive prayer rally in peru was NOT held in kim davis's honor, so, it's really not surprising that they are telling us to treat this as a full papal endorsement
― goole, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:47 (eight years ago) link
xp dude knows how to close strong: Meeting with the pope is a great honor, but it does not betoken a blanket blessing on “everything” one does. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Pope Francis also met Mark Wahlberg, and that does not mean that he liked “Ted.”
― I might like you better if we Yelped together (Phil D.), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:52 (eight years ago) link
Davis an insignificant 15-minute troll everyone will forget about by next year. GOP/evangelicals are hyping her up out of futile desperation. Pope's just trying to stay current.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:53 (eight years ago) link
What is he supposed to do "I cast you DOOOOOWWWN!!!"
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 18:54 (eight years ago) link
burn her at the stake maybe
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 19:06 (eight years ago) link
seriously, these people are inveterate liars.
davis's lawyers recently had to fess up that no, a picture taken of a massive prayer rally in peru was NOT held in kim davis's honor, so, it's really not surprising that they are telling us to treat this as a full papal endorsement― goole, Wednesday, September 30, 2015 6:47 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― goole, Wednesday, September 30, 2015 6:47 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 19:13 (eight years ago) link
an insignificant 15-minute troll everyone will forget about by next year
this season's terry schiavo
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 19:15 (eight years ago) link
to be fair to Schiavo, she had no idea she was being used for trollbait
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:11 (eight years ago) link
this is how i feel FWIW. like anyone else the pope is operating within constraints. we shouldn't expect him to toss off his robes and shout "abortions for /everyone/!," and even if he did, it wouldn't be nearly as useful as using his (literal!) pulpit to call for economic justice, action on climate change. that doesn't mean the pope and the church are above criticism, far from it. but that we need to take these things in context, and here the context is the long history of the catholic church, the divided nature of the church itself (with congregations outside of north america being very passionate about economic justice and very conservative on many personal liberties), and the approach taken by previous popes (say "previous popes" a few times really fast btw; it's fun!).
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:29 (eight years ago) link
reactions to the pope's visit have been a good litmus test btw of how good my facebook, etc. friends are at political nuance. a lot of them are like "SAVE US MR POPE!" and others are like "RELIGION BAD!"
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:30 (eight years ago) link
really the only people who should be surprised are TV pundits
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link
by etc. i guess i mean, like, in real life. which is often the same group as my facebook friends. but i'm not very social so most of the political "conversations" i have (apart from those with my S.O.) are online.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link
"Why should we care what he thinks" is my a numb-brained response I see from a good number of left-ish fb friends.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:32 (eight years ago) link
Charles Piece, normally not a credulous sort but a Catholic nonetheless, takes this rather hard.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:36 (eight years ago) link
whoa, that is way too inside baseball for me.
to cut to the chase -- does it seem that the pope actually endorsed kim davis's actions or did he just meet with her and her followers/exploiters are spinning it that way?
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:39 (eight years ago) link
If you are down w meeting world leaders who are actively killing/torturing people then meeting w a crazy lady that thinks God is giving her carte blanche to not do her job is small potatoes.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:40 (eight years ago) link
Raul Castro is a worse person than Kim Davis, I told a co-worker over lunch.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:41 (eight years ago) link
lol @ W.C. fields reference though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41SFTn9xHus
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:41 (eight years ago) link
fast-forward to 3:45 or so
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:42 (eight years ago) link
Obama etc etc
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:45 (eight years ago) link
Davis thing is a little odd, since when are evangelicals down with the papists
Weird little inversion of the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend principle on a global interfaith stage.
― Norse Jung (Eric H.), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:48 (eight years ago) link
No, Obama is not my coworker.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:48 (eight years ago) link
https://historicallyanimated.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/7bfa6-rimshot.jpg?w=335&h=251
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:53 (eight years ago) link
It's like when you hang with your dad, he's cool with your friends, shares books, and he drops the n word.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 20:56 (eight years ago) link
to cut to the chase -- does it seem that the pope actually endorsed kim davis's actions or did he just meet with her and her followers/exploiters are spinning it that way?― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, September 30, 2015 8:39 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, September 30, 2015 8:39 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the only statement from a party thats not kim davis or her retarded lawyers is the vatican confirming that they had a meeting
― panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:01 (eight years ago) link
although the pope and his handlers should be smart enough to know that even a meeting w/ the pope will be construed as a kind of endorsement and so perhaps they meant it to appear that way. who knows...
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:03 (eight years ago) link
i mean a meeting with this particular person. obviously a meeting w/, say, castro or putin isn't necessarily going to be spun that way by most folks.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:04 (eight years ago) link
maybe speculating too far here, but it also occurred to me that the meeting with Davis might have also included others and that the Pope might not have even necessarily known he was specifically meeting with her, and/or may not have known who she was in advance.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:10 (eight years ago) link
I would totally not put it past some well-connected GOP heavy to invite Davis to a meeting and pull a fast one in that way
so basically it's like this, only instead of selling a cell phone they're selling "kim davis, champion of personal liberty"
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/04/02/david-ortiz-selfie-distributed-with-help-samsung/s2tU35cVQJYMeI6FMXspOJ/story.html
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:13 (eight years ago) link
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/30/444671535/kim-davis-and-pope-francis-reportedly-had-a-private-meeting-in-dc
"On his flight back to Rome, the pope was asked during a press conference if he would support government officials who say they cannot in good conscience discharge their duties — for example, issuing same sex marriage licenses."Without referring to Kim Davis, the pope said conscientious objection is a right that is part of every human right."
"Without referring to Kim Davis, the pope said conscientious objection is a right that is part of every human right."
― :wq (Leee), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:51 (eight years ago) link
except she is not that
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:54 (eight years ago) link
http://www.cruxnow.com/papal-visit/2015/09/30/what-it-means-that-pope-francis-met-kim-davis/
― goole, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 21:58 (eight years ago) link
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius),
a human?
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 30 September 2015 23:22 (eight years ago) link
Lol
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 30 September 2015 23:26 (eight years ago) link
that cruxnow.com article i posted is more or less telling francis' liberal american fans to suck it up a deal, he's still a pope:
Taken together with his unscheduled stop to see the Little Sisters of the Poor, the Davis encounter means Francis has expressed personal support to leading symbols of the two most contentious fronts in America’s religious freedom debates – the contraception mandates imposed by the Obama administration, and conscientious objection on gay marriage.
but charles pierce speculates that the ratzingerites set him up:
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a38440/pope-francis-swindled-kim-davis-meeting/
― goole, Thursday, 1 October 2015 15:16 (eight years ago) link
Why so much hand-wringing? He's a Catholic, these views are hardly a surprise, and he can be on the progressive side of some issues while being on the conservative side on others.
― :wq (Leee), Thursday, 1 October 2015 15:40 (eight years ago) link
Easy article to write. "Does the pope shit in the woods?"
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 1 October 2015 15:55 (eight years ago) link
It doesn't surprise me that Francis would be against same-sex marriage, but it doesn't seem like he's so invested in the cause that he would make a special point to meet with a politically divisive (and non-Catholic!) gay-marriage opponent. Agree with Pierce that there's something weird and sneaky about it.
― jaymc, Thursday, 1 October 2015 17:47 (eight years ago) link
it's so strange to me that dogma that were originally derived by clearly tribal goals of expanding the tribe's population - no birth control, no abortion, no homos - are still clung to in the modern era. Given that all of them are based (afaik) on interpretations of Old Testament directives that the majority of Jews have long since abandoned. Like, isn't it obvious there are enough people in the world? the risk of Xtians running out of Xtians is pretty low... and yet this is third-rail type stuff for the clergy that can in no way be abandoned or put up for debate, ever (even though the Jewish tradition has a loooooooong history of doing exactly that with the very same source material)
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 1 October 2015 17:57 (eight years ago) link
derived FROM arggh
I think you're touching on the reason there: the animus against gays is first and foremost a deeply tribal response, and then they're just using doctrine and other reasons (increasing population) to justify it.
― :wq (Leee), Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:11 (eight years ago) link
also the bible is the word of goddamn god and if you start to pick it apart youre left with anarchy and moral relativism
― panettone for the painfully alone (mayor jingleberries), Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:12 (eight years ago) link
Try those arguments on a Catholic and you'll get nowhere, because you'd be omitting what they consider to be the first and most important principle: God wills it.
― Aimless, Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:14 (eight years ago) link
i have to admit that part of me has a certain respect for the pope for trolling his liberal fans by capping his visit w/ a meeting w/ kim davis. the other part of me wants to throw up.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:14 (eight years ago) link
― Aimless, Thursday, October 1, 2015 1:14 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
except most lay catholics in the USA have more liberal positions on those issues than the Church...
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:15 (eight years ago) link