a clown car full of millionaires: the 2016 presidential primary thread

politico going ham

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/is-bernie-sanders-a-socialist-in-name-only-120545.html?ml=m_t2_2h

(cw: freddie deboer)

I'm wondering how much the "Clinton is the only viable GE candidate" argument is based on a naive view of how her campaign will actually go. This is how MSNBC reported her comments about Sandra Bland yesterday:

Clinton also addressed the recent death of Sandra Bland, an African-American woman who apparently committed suicide after being arrested during a traffic stop in Texas.

“I was heartbreaking to read about,” Clinton said of Bland. “It is essential that we all stand up and say loudly and clearly, ‘Yes, black lives matter.’”

Maybe she said more? If not, that's just totally inadequate. (The MSNBC reporter was praising this, by the way, compared to Sanders' "stumble" when he got interrupted on stage the other day.)

eh the headline's more disingenuous than the article. He says nothing unkind about Sanders. And:

While I wish that she, Joe Biden and John Kerry had not been spooked into believing that no one who voted no would have the national security merit badge required to win the presidency, I regard liberal senators’ support for the Iraq War as a response to a given fraught political situation rather than an indication of their basic policy stance — like Obama’s off-again, on-again support for same-sex marriage. (Yes, I am saying that in deciding whether or not to support a candidate with whom I have disagreed on a fundamental issue, I am more at ease if it was a one-time political accommodation rather than a genuine conviction.)

has been his conviction for thirty-five years, for better or worse. He's not a Wall Street toady like HRC (you should read Act of Congress to learn how WS hacks tried to pick off his staff one by one); he decided in 2007 and 2008 that HRC was the better candidate than Barack Obama.

I regard liberal senators’ support for the Iraq War as a response to a given fraught political situation

this is fair but a "yes" vote is indicative of general stupidity and political ineptitude - a "yes" vote indicates either 1) an acceptance of DubyaCo's snake oil or b) a belief/hope that the war would not turn out to be a total clusterfuck disaster. The former demonstrates credulity, the latter lack of foresight.

(3) I'm a post-DLC Democrat who must look tough if I want to be president

I think that falls under b) tbh, cuz you don't look tough for voting for a war that is a colossal failure

you look like a gullible idiot

which is precisely the defense Hillary, Biden etc all fall back on "well, based on what we knew at the time..."

the problem is "based on what we knew at the time" it was still obviously a boondoggle, and there were millions of people that loudly pointed that out

Depends. I know Republicans and Dems whose thinking the war a mistake had nothing to do with its success. Grenada was a 'success.'

you bet your ass Grenada was a success!
http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/1-Heartbreak-Ridge-quotes.jpg

seriously i promise to believe in god if the religious right promises to withdraw from politics

― 1992 ball boy (Karl Malone), Friday, July 24, 2015 12:39 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

im on board

jeb! on martin o'malley's "all lives matter" thing:

“I know in the political context it’s a slogan, I guess,” Bush said Thursday. “And should [O’Malley] apologize? No. If he believes that white lives matter, which I hope he does, then he shouldn’t apologize to a group that seemed to disagree with it.”

also rick perry is into the idea that all citizens should carry guns everywhere and be ready to be a hero in times of crisis (although i guess he's always said so)

"I believe that, with all my heart, that if you have the citizens who are well trained, and particularly in these places that are considered to be gun-free zones, that we can stop that type of activity, or stop it before there's as many people that are impacted as what we saw in Lafayette," Perry said.

man jeb's a lot more weaselly than his brother huh

"impacted" is not the verb I use to describe the victims in Lafayette.

yes, gun-free zones are the problem

it's all so obvious to me now

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/latest-national-poll-shows-bernie-sanders-beating-scott-walker-donald-trump-jeb-bush

that... is not what those poll results actually show tho?

See question 21.

right but really I would say that reflects Dem advantage, not necessarily a Bernie advantage. Also what about all the rabid Jindal supporters out there

The poll has a pretty huge MOE and it's early days, but I feel like this should at least quiet some of the "Bernie has no chance" CW.

the default lefty argument is he's working for Hillary.

i mean LEFTy, you know.

but he does have no chance.

I’d rather have him running than not.

But please do not give him or Hillary or the wonderful Jill Stein or any other candidate a dime or a moment of your life. Instead, join the movement that’s in the streets of Baltimore opposing police murder, that’s in the halls of the United Nations pushing to abolish nukes, that’s blocking mountaintop removal, divesting from Israel, advancing renewable energy, and struggling to create fair elections through steps like automatic registration in Oregon, and pushing legislation to provide free media, match small donors, give each voter a tax credit to contribute, or take the power to establish plutocracy away from the Supreme Court.

I’m not against elections. I think we should have one some day. At the presidential level we do not currently have elections. That office is not up for election; it is up for sale....

I worked as press secretary for Dennis Kucinich for president in 2004. I watched him make all the right points and win the most standing ovations in debates with the other Democrats. The reports the next day tended to mention him in the last paragraph as having also been there. And if you asked people in the room cheering for him they’d say “Yeah, I’d vote for him if he had a chance.” And inwardly, and sometimes outwardly, I’d rage at them: “Imagine the chance he’d have if all you morons weren’t bowing down to your televisions? Why show up and act as if you have an independent brain if you’re just going to do what your television told you to do?”

So, here I am in the role of “that jerk” telling Bernie Sanders fanatics that it’s hopeless — a self-fulfilling prophecy of doom if ever there was one. But we have limited time, energy, and money. I don’t think saving the planet is hopeless. I just think the best place to put our resources is into uncorrupted, principled, policy-driven, nonviolent, creative activism — including the activism needed to create fair, open, verifiable elections.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/01/invest-in-activism-not-bernie-sanders/

Nothing wrong with doing both! Not a huge investment to plan to vote for Bernie.

And what? Relying on everyone becoming creative activists to foment change? Talk about hopeless...

i don't even own a tv to bow down to, busy bowing to cellphone rn

so HRC is our Only Hope

The only hope is to keep pushing from the left. I'm mildly excited that this is the most liberal election climate of my lifetime (I was born a Watergate baby). At this point the 1996 and 2000 elections look like DLC-approved squabbles between RNC candidates. that's what the Counterpunch article gets wrong. The presidency does matter because executive orders, appointments, and statements matter.

I'm mildly excited that this is the most liberal election climate of my lifetime

agree this is p weird

Meanwhile Hillary is not, repeat not, doomed:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/07/hillary_clinton_swing_state_polls_why_you_should_ignore_the_doomsayers.html

money quote may be "At roughly this point in 2011, Barack Obama was a goner. With a net negative job approval rating, he was behind in key swing states and losing to a generic Republican in a nationwide matchup. But the election came, and the picture changed: Discontented Democrats returned to his corner, and the race tightened to a virtual tossup."

I'm mildly excited that this is the most liberal election climate of my lifetime

I'm not sure exactly how this is measured (Jesse Jackson '84/88 was leftier than Bernie on guns and Israel), but it's not going to get you a "most liberal" result in the end.

i mean, the Old Democratic Party still existed then, as comatose as it was.

Discontented Democrats always come back. That's why i'm not one.

lol what a dick: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-28/smoke-that-pot-now-christie-tells-users-in-states-that-allow-it?cmpid=yhoo

also what constituency does he think he's appealing to here

Jackson, Jerry Brown, and Ralph Nader were were campaigning against a candidate who had no intention of going left whereas HRC has. That's the difference. Call it cynicism.

idk if we discussed (or posted) this png yet but i was thinking today that in addition to dramatizing hill v. sanders' financial bases, it also explains pretty clearly why sanders is against open borders.

because unions generally frown on illegal immigrant/non-union labor?

yeah - there's a lot of history of protectionism among unions

lol that lehman brothers gave so much that they're still #10 overall on the career list

i don't call HRC saying shit no one with a brain believes "going left"

Considering how many voters seem to decide their votes are nothing but some responsible-grown-up-compromise duty well before it's even time to vote, and then make it worse by telling all their friends to compromise with them or risk you-know-what, I'd say the possibilities of change through voting are officially underrated.

The dumbest thing liberal voters do is to loudly let the Democratic Party know ahead of time that, no matter what, in a crunch, they have your vote. It's this big sign on your forehead that says "IGNORE ME".

yes, the zero-leverage lifetime vote

tbh obama is the first democratic candidate in my adult lifetime i haven't heard almost every liberal person i know grumble about "having" to vote for

I thought there was quite a bit of forced enthusiasm in 2012.

definitely tons on this very board, but out in the world, i'd still say comparatively less than gore and kerry for sure. i wasn't aware enough to have these conversations with clinton's bids.

If that's your tineframe, it's worth noting that he's the only one that won.

with William Jeff it was hold your nose and hope he died from his own stench.

lol squeezin that grandma clinton schtick for every drop of juice

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLFmYWpWUAAO9EW.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_zGnH6HWaAi0/TYaxj1UN2qI/AAAAAAAAKQE/r11exapOWZY/s1600/30rock.jpg

jim gilmore, #17

http://2016.republican-candidates.org/Gilmore/