namaste
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 20:35 (eight years ago) link
I'm not about to join in some unsupported anti- Cornel West thing, he is owed at least a systematic takedown of specific points in his argument, not just some typical ILE "oh how obvious, I don't even have to make an argument here" snark. Just going to lump him with de Boer, that will prove it.
West has earned more than that, get busy.
Not saying you can't make the case! But internet discourse is so lazy now, like "oh I'm just going to sneer, I don't have to actually make coherent arguments because sneeeeeeeeeeer" At least there is something to talk about then, not just another tedious pile-on and you're-either-with-us-or-against-us thread.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:22 (eight years ago) link
west's comments are too stupid to deserve a detailed response, but the idea that TNC has avoided criticizing obama is especially dumb
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:28 (eight years ago) link
is west making any well-considered arguments to be refuted? or is he just lazily repeating a shtick?
― Rave Van Donk (jim in glasgow), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:28 (eight years ago) link
How is saying he's wrong or limited in his scope of analysis of Coates being anti-Dr. West? His criticism might have some legs when limited in scope to Coates' recent book, and some of the way Coates frames his viewpoint don't necessarily ring true with me, but I still appreciate his approach and can differ with West on some of those criticisms.
The sneering, as you see it, is taking aspects of West's argument in this particular case and saying that he's off base on some legs of his criticism. There are plenty of other criticisms, some of which he brings up, that are valid.
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
this is a p good takedown of West's recent schtick from awhile back (altho personal motivations of the author don't do it any favors)
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost?utm_content=bufferd4fd7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
I get that there is always a segment looking for a single "correct" voice but there are so many points where Coates has said he doesn't say that, but even framing it as "taking down" West is exactly the sort of binary thinking you're claiming you dislike, VP!
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:30 (eight years ago) link
http://www.poemhunter.com/i/p/21/11621_b_498.jpg
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:31 (eight years ago) link
That New Republic article was utter shit! I read it when it came out.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:32 (eight years ago) link
The West/Dyson spat is a whole nother thing but West invariably comes off as embittered and irrational when it comes to Obama.
― Hikikomori Povich (tsrobodo), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
i like c west but he gives little impression of having read anything by coates. but i recall coates endorsing that (i thought pretty unfair) new republic article on west, so hey tit for tat
― Merdeyeux, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
TNR article has a point about West eschewing any kind of deep critical discourse for cheap celebrity imo
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:35 (eight years ago) link
good on Dr. Cornel West for being the uncompromising person he is, but you have to question what rock he's standing on
and then there's Vic Perry resolutely blasting an entire article as "utter shit" in total
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:35 (eight years ago) link
the writer of that article has earned more than "utter shit" as a rebuttal, get busy!
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:36 (eight years ago) link
(is "get busy" the 2015 "do your research?"
the stuff west has said about obama is so deplorable that i have a hard time taking anything he says seriously anymore.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:37 (eight years ago) link
I'm all for critiques of Obama but West gets p hystrionic
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:41 (eight years ago) link
Just checked and I stand by my assessment of that New Republic article, from the preposterous illustration of "cuh-RAY-zee" Cornel West on down to such sentences reducing all crit of Our Beloved President as
It is a sad truth that most politicians are serial rhetorical lovers and promiscuous ideological mates, leaving behind scores of briefly valued surrogates and supporters. West should have understood that Obama had had similar trysts with many others. But West felt spurned and was embittered.
Surely ILE is PC enough to notice the sexist bizarreness of this opening line: "Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned” is the best-known line from William Congreve’s The Mourning Bride."
Man, that Cornel West is like some kind of CHICK or something....
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:43 (eight years ago) link
the next sentence begins with "But"
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:45 (eight years ago) link
lemme know when you get there
did you even make it to the second sentence
xpp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:45 (eight years ago) link
Oh gee let's not notice the bizarre sexism of the New Republic article or anything, we have an agenda here.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:46 (eight years ago) link
*farts*
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:48 (eight years ago) link
the bit you quoted is a non-gendered critique fyi
xp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:48 (eight years ago) link
ha ha ha okay carry on toadies
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:49 (eight years ago) link
haven't you read anything, Obama is a secret homosexual muslim, obviously West is literally a spurned lover
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:50 (eight years ago) link
who the f are we toadies for?!?
just to make it absolutely crystal fucking clear here, here's the full passage:
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned” is the best-known line from William Congreve’s The Mourning Bride. But I’m concerned with the phrase preceding it, which captures wrath in more universal terms: “Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned.” Even an angry Almighty can’t compete with mortals whose love turns to hate.
and this:It is a sad truth that most politicians are serial rhetorical lovers and promiscuous ideological mates, leaving behind scores of briefly valued surrogates and supporters. West should have understood that Obama had had similar trysts with many others. But West felt spurned and was embittered.
is not gender-specific
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:51 (eight years ago) link
Is your point that West is 100% correct about Coates? What are you even debating here?
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:51 (eight years ago) link
I think he's trying to say "oh I'm just going to sneer, I don't have to actually make coherent arguments because sneeeeeeeeeeer"
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:54 (eight years ago) link
guys vic perry is not owed a systematic takedown
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:54 (eight years ago) link
we can't understand vic's point because we're neoliberals who are paralyzed by our obama worship, duh
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:56 (eight years ago) link
otm, he could find actual problematic phrases that aren't actually related to critical discussion all day, and we could take them down all day, avoiding the actual discussion
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:56 (eight years ago) link
why haven't you all hit "Flag Post" on this fool and moved on
― I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:08 (eight years ago) link
toadiebs
― goole, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:09 (eight years ago) link
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:56 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
speak for yourself
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:10 (eight years ago) link
just because vp is totally incoherent doesn't mean you're made entirely of kneejerks
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:13 (eight years ago) link
you're not made entirely
Oh hey, over here (I'm picturing a pile of posters with nothing specific underneath, ooph).
Earlier I asked if anybody would make a specific argument as to why West is wrong about Coates. (I like Coates by the way). Not only couldn't you manage the most basic argument, you righteously explained why it was beneath you to do
Unsurprisingly, "I Refuse To Make A Coherent Argument Because You Suck" is a thing at ILX. Otherwise coherent arguments would need to be made and how do you manage a good pile on that way.
The tragic Outic bits on why the New Republic arguments aren't sexist are just sad. Dude, nobody in the 21st C quoting the "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" deserves the slightest consideration. Do YOU go around quoting that shit? I haven't heard such convincing arguments since that guy in my high school locker room called another guy a "woman". Yeah, man. Men should be men, you know?
Again, I'm absolutely amazed that such an utterly Peee Ceee discussion space as ILX would actually decide at this moment in time to say, hey, in this case it is okay, just cuz they talking about men, to repeat dumbass sexist ideas about women (as somehow particularly prone to irrational behavior around jealousy --- never mind the track record of homicidal jealous males throughout history, hell hath no fury etc.)
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:23 (eight years ago) link
tl; waste of time; dr
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:30 (eight years ago) link
feel like you are arguing in bad faith what with the chronic (apparently intentional?) misquoting, inability to read etc. so I'm a let yr completely baseless sexist accusation against the Dyson piece go, since (as others have pointed out) you are simply using it as a shitty misdirection tactic.
as far as why West is wrong about quotes, he makes several assertions which are just flat-out wrong and inaccurate. Coates has criticized Obama, and he has written about the "new militancy" (as West calls it) in Ferguson, Baltimore etc. Do you want me to post links
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:30 (eight years ago) link
wrong about COATES gah
That I could believe. Would it be too much to ask that somebody explain WHY EXACTLY West is wrong about Coates? Pretty please?
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:32 (eight years ago) link
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:10 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:13 PM (18 minutes ago)
ok, what?
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:32 (eight years ago) link
WHY EXACTLY West is wrong about Coates? Pretty please?
Because he criticizes Coates for being silent about things Coates has not actually been silent about
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:35 (eight years ago) link
I am biting my tongue here fwiw
here I googled something for you
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/how-the-obama-administration-talks-to-black-america/276015/
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:36 (eight years ago) link
In which Coates talks about Obama's weaknesses and addresses the situation in Ferguson. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/barack-obama-ferguson-and-the-evidence-of-things-unsaid/383212/
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:36 (eight years ago) link
Thank you for condescending to share actual stuff --- and it's some convincing stuff too.
(Was that so hard?)
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:39 (eight years ago) link
West's "critique" basically consists of baldly inaccurate assertions about Coates' writing and the not-so-subtle insinuation that Coates should be more like Cornel West.
it was kinda hard tbh
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:40 (eight years ago) link