Also on the topic of insufficiency - human rights operate when they are backed up by some form of oversight. I have a right to clean water because ultimately if I think the tap water is dirty someone will come and test it etc. But in these extreme cases of murder by police the only process of oversight is the cop's own completely subjective, sometimes split-second process of risk assessment. If the case later goes to court then it will be re-assessed on the basis of some objective factors, but often mostly of the cops own reported subjective feelings.
The same could be said for hiring decisions, the ultimate quality-assessment process is often inside the black box of s single person's mind. We can look at the overall racial make-up of a company but proving discrimination in any given decision is going to be difficult, and how could we even introduce oversight?
so if black people depend on white (and non-black) people's largesse in these situations, and we have no idea how to introduce objective oversight to the moment of decision, do they really have rights?
― Vasco da Gama, Thursday, 16 July 2015 08:09 (eight years ago) link
I think it’s cases like these that lead people to dismiss human rights talk as a form of pleading with white people and turn to focus on balance-of-forces instead - although I think some possible demands for power like ‘black cops for black neighbourhoods’ could be addressed in a liberal framework.
― Vasco da Gama, Thursday, 16 July 2015 08:20 (eight years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/1nNEPmP.jpg
― supreme problematics (D-40), Thursday, 16 July 2015 08:30 (eight years ago) link
http://www.buzzfeed.com/shani/between-the-world-and-she#.fvOBvlJeG9
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 16 July 2015 16:26 (eight years ago) link
Cornel West has decided to out-wrong everybody who is wrong about Ta-Nehisi Coates
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKDsT96WcAAimln.png
― Merdeyeux, Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:17 (eight years ago) link
as in jazz
― Clay, Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:22 (eight years ago) link
Tony Morrison
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:27 (eight years ago) link
Liking the idea of Dr. West and Freddie DeBoer hunkering down over a cup of coffee and commiserating about this tbh
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:28 (eight years ago) link
lol
― difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:35 (eight years ago) link
Omg perfect
https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/621398935626756096
― got bent (mild cheezed off vibes) (s.clover), Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:35 (eight years ago) link
the first comment on West's post is so otm
Colette FicklinDr. West, much love to you. Please receive that the dogmatic grip you have on the prophetic black fire may cause burgeoning flames of consciousness to...smolder. The "Race Matters" Cornel has given way to the present day, unapologetic soldier. Let's allow others to find their voices and their way through. We need all levels of conscious thought and engagement to reach the masses at the same. I.e., let's chill a sec on the philisophical implosions of internal critique. Let's be about the business of LIGHTING pilots not snuffing them out. ♡ #SandraBland #pilotlighter115 · Hide · 1 hour ago11 replies
― difficult-difficult lemon-difficult (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 July 2015 19:49 (eight years ago) link
def think it's time to retire the term "neoliberal."
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 20:08 (eight years ago) link
I don't get the commenters on websites claiming Coates is endlessly blaming the past, constantly cynical and negative, and that we'll never progress with that viewpoint. To me, he's optimistic -- acknowledging the past and the present as they are, but it's not in the context of blame per se, just acknowledgment. This is where we were, we are here in part due to the past and in part due to present policy, but we can address that and make things better.
I understand the impulse to start at this very moment and only move forward from there, but without the context of how things got the way they are, you'll never address a way to make things right, imo. The people who start at the present day, claiming they want to make a difference, always seem to jump straight to the "pull up your pants, stop shooting each other (black people), use these resources (that have purposefully been built to exclude you) to get ahead"
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 20:15 (eight years ago) link
Yeah he addressed that quite thoroughly here and throughout the course of his back and forth with Chaithttp://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/other-peoples-pathologies/359841/ (still think this is among the best things he's written)
Chait thinks this view is "fatalistic." I think God is fatalistic. In the end, we all die. As do most societies. As do most states. As do most planets. If America is fatally flawed, if white supremacy does truly dog us until we are no more, all that means is that we were unexceptional, that we were not favored by God, that we were flawed—as are all things conceived by mortal man.I find great peace in that. And I find great meaning in this struggle that was gifted to me by my people, that was gifted to me by culture.
I find great peace in that. And I find great meaning in this struggle that was gifted to me by my people, that was gifted to me by culture.
― Hikikomori Povich (tsrobodo), Thursday, 16 July 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link
namaste
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 20:35 (eight years ago) link
I'm not about to join in some unsupported anti- Cornel West thing, he is owed at least a systematic takedown of specific points in his argument, not just some typical ILE "oh how obvious, I don't even have to make an argument here" snark. Just going to lump him with de Boer, that will prove it.
West has earned more than that, get busy.
Not saying you can't make the case! But internet discourse is so lazy now, like "oh I'm just going to sneer, I don't have to actually make coherent arguments because sneeeeeeeeeeer" At least there is something to talk about then, not just another tedious pile-on and you're-either-with-us-or-against-us thread.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:22 (eight years ago) link
west's comments are too stupid to deserve a detailed response, but the idea that TNC has avoided criticizing obama is especially dumb
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:28 (eight years ago) link
is west making any well-considered arguments to be refuted? or is he just lazily repeating a shtick?
― Rave Van Donk (jim in glasgow), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:28 (eight years ago) link
How is saying he's wrong or limited in his scope of analysis of Coates being anti-Dr. West? His criticism might have some legs when limited in scope to Coates' recent book, and some of the way Coates frames his viewpoint don't necessarily ring true with me, but I still appreciate his approach and can differ with West on some of those criticisms.
The sneering, as you see it, is taking aspects of West's argument in this particular case and saying that he's off base on some legs of his criticism. There are plenty of other criticisms, some of which he brings up, that are valid.
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
this is a p good takedown of West's recent schtick from awhile back (altho personal motivations of the author don't do it any favors)
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost?utm_content=bufferd4fd7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
I get that there is always a segment looking for a single "correct" voice but there are so many points where Coates has said he doesn't say that, but even framing it as "taking down" West is exactly the sort of binary thinking you're claiming you dislike, VP!
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:30 (eight years ago) link
http://www.poemhunter.com/i/p/21/11621_b_498.jpg
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:31 (eight years ago) link
That New Republic article was utter shit! I read it when it came out.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:32 (eight years ago) link
The West/Dyson spat is a whole nother thing but West invariably comes off as embittered and irrational when it comes to Obama.
― Hikikomori Povich (tsrobodo), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
i like c west but he gives little impression of having read anything by coates. but i recall coates endorsing that (i thought pretty unfair) new republic article on west, so hey tit for tat
― Merdeyeux, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
TNR article has a point about West eschewing any kind of deep critical discourse for cheap celebrity imo
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:35 (eight years ago) link
good on Dr. Cornel West for being the uncompromising person he is, but you have to question what rock he's standing on
and then there's Vic Perry resolutely blasting an entire article as "utter shit" in total
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:35 (eight years ago) link
the writer of that article has earned more than "utter shit" as a rebuttal, get busy!
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:36 (eight years ago) link
(is "get busy" the 2015 "do your research?"
the stuff west has said about obama is so deplorable that i have a hard time taking anything he says seriously anymore.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:37 (eight years ago) link
I'm all for critiques of Obama but West gets p hystrionic
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:41 (eight years ago) link
Just checked and I stand by my assessment of that New Republic article, from the preposterous illustration of "cuh-RAY-zee" Cornel West on down to such sentences reducing all crit of Our Beloved President as
It is a sad truth that most politicians are serial rhetorical lovers and promiscuous ideological mates, leaving behind scores of briefly valued surrogates and supporters. West should have understood that Obama had had similar trysts with many others. But West felt spurned and was embittered.
Surely ILE is PC enough to notice the sexist bizarreness of this opening line: "Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned” is the best-known line from William Congreve’s The Mourning Bride."
Man, that Cornel West is like some kind of CHICK or something....
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:43 (eight years ago) link
the next sentence begins with "But"
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:45 (eight years ago) link
lemme know when you get there
did you even make it to the second sentence
xpp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:45 (eight years ago) link
Oh gee let's not notice the bizarre sexism of the New Republic article or anything, we have an agenda here.
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:46 (eight years ago) link
*farts*
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:48 (eight years ago) link
the bit you quoted is a non-gendered critique fyi
xp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:48 (eight years ago) link
ha ha ha okay carry on toadies
― Vic Perry, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:49 (eight years ago) link
haven't you read anything, Obama is a secret homosexual muslim, obviously West is literally a spurned lover
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:50 (eight years ago) link
who the f are we toadies for?!?
just to make it absolutely crystal fucking clear here, here's the full passage:
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned” is the best-known line from William Congreve’s The Mourning Bride. But I’m concerned with the phrase preceding it, which captures wrath in more universal terms: “Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned.” Even an angry Almighty can’t compete with mortals whose love turns to hate.
and this:It is a sad truth that most politicians are serial rhetorical lovers and promiscuous ideological mates, leaving behind scores of briefly valued surrogates and supporters. West should have understood that Obama had had similar trysts with many others. But West felt spurned and was embittered.
is not gender-specific
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:51 (eight years ago) link
Is your point that West is 100% correct about Coates? What are you even debating here?
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:51 (eight years ago) link
I think he's trying to say "oh I'm just going to sneer, I don't have to actually make coherent arguments because sneeeeeeeeeeer"
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:54 (eight years ago) link
guys vic perry is not owed a systematic takedown
― Trap Queenius (wins), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:54 (eight years ago) link
we can't understand vic's point because we're neoliberals who are paralyzed by our obama worship, duh
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:56 (eight years ago) link
otm, he could find actual problematic phrases that aren't actually related to critical discussion all day, and we could take them down all day, avoiding the actual discussion
― Upright Mammal (mh), Thursday, 16 July 2015 21:56 (eight years ago) link
why haven't you all hit "Flag Post" on this fool and moved on
― I Am Curious (Dolezal) (DJP), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:08 (eight years ago) link
toadiebs
― goole, Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:09 (eight years ago) link
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, July 16, 2015 3:56 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
speak for yourself
― e-bouquet (mattresslessness), Thursday, 16 July 2015 22:10 (eight years ago) link