I'm an alcoholic

If you believe "A History of the World in Six Glasses," beer started out as liquid bread. Indeed, the origins of agriculture, bread, and beer are so intertwined (or so goes this theory) that the first breads were basically just a way to store the ingredients of beer - then someone figured out that it would be a decent foodstuff on its own. So anthropologically speaking, bread is just a solid form of beer and beer is just a liquid form of bread.

Of course, this is probably complete hooey (as so many of those "history seen through the lens of X" books are). I know a guy who got through a semester abroad by realizing that his meal plan could get him either a paltry meal, or a decent amount of stout - and he almost always chose the stout as both more filling and more caloric than the food.

I recall Braudel in Civilization & Capitalism: Structures of Everyday Life discussing tendency of beer to substitute for bread in times of shortage? but I destroyed the book to make fun poem collages so can't look it up now :/

... sorry, a bit off-topic there
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I don't believe heavy drinking can "become" chemical dependency - can't it though? Alcohol is a drug and if someone is drinking extremely high levels of it their body will need it to function and they'll become violently ill if they don't have it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that alcohol withdrawal is one of the few withdrawals that can actually kill a person. I guess maybe you're saying that those in the second category you were describing can't become genetically predisposed like the first through heavy drinking but if they're drinking enough for any reason then they can become chemically dependent on it.

Right, you can't drink yourself into genetic predisposition to chemical dependency but you can, chronically, drink yourself into chemical dependency?

I think that you can, yes.

you can

I think I started to feel the beginnings of that a few weeks ago, when I woke up, went to work, *didn't* drink, and was hit with nausea & shakes & sweating by the time I sat down at my desk.

gbx what are your thoughts on naltrexone? obv I can Pubmed to my heart's content, but interested in your opinion specifically y'know.

Right, you can't drink yourself into genetic predisposition to chemical dependency but you can, chronically, drink yourself into chemical dependency?

yes duh

Substitute any drug known to be addictive, not having a predisposition ≠ immunity to eg crack

Sooo circling back then since this was sparked by one of Puffin's lovely long comments

thoughts on this Puffin?

Hows it going

you missing the drink or the habit of drinking or the situations youd be drinking in or does it not help for me to list shit

gbx what are your thoughts on naltrexone? obv I can Pubmed to my heart's content, but interested in your opinion specifically y'know.

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 4:05 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

solidly pro at this point --- don't have a lot of clinical experience with it, but i'm hoping to get more. addiction psych is on my shortlist of areas of interest

addiction psych is on my shortlist of areas of interest

^^^good bro, thanking u :)

I think that habitual heavy drinkers do get physically conditioned to expect a regular buzz. This is bound up with simple force of habit - drinking every day makes a drink-free day seem wrong.

Plus the psychological type of addiction - the feeling that you can't cope without the insulation of booze between you and life. This makes you less and less able to marshal your own internal resources to the task of Dealing With Shit.

And yeah, there will be withdrawal symptoms. Also, the feeling Hoos mentioned that after a while without a drink, the first one or two are going to hit you pretty hard.

If this is where someone is, they are right to try to get out from under it, and to restore some control.

FWIW I still think that inescapable chemical dependency is a different creature from habitual heavy drinking / problem drinking, but in some senses it doesn't matter at this point. If you feel out of control, you should regain control via a means that makes sense for you.

Then the question becomes whether AA and complete abstinence are the right way out, or some other way is the right way out. Once you're not so underwater, perhaps then is the time to parse the finer points of physical vs. psychological addiction.

For the last ~10 months, I've been doing outpatient treatment. 3 group sessions per week, one individual session with a counselor per week. The program's given me something resembling a support network (helpful after years of isolating myself) + education in terms of stress management/setting boundaries/clarifying my personal values. I've gone from drinking every day to drinking maybe once every 2 months (if I get super pissed/stressed about something). The program I'm in really pushes people to attend AA meetings... I still haven't gone because it sounds really really like not my bag at all, but I'm going to finally (hopefully) give it a shot this coming Saturday.

Exercise and meditation have been helpful for me as well.

Congrats and keep at it! And don't write AA off too quickly - meetings I've been to have been very welcoming and not at all God-based, and often hilarious. Ppl are very, very into the program. Just be prepared to filter some of that stuff out so you can take what you need from the mtg. Good luck.

If the goal is never ever drinking again, AA appears to work for a lot of people. Except for the people it doesn't work for. Whether they truly can't do it, or just won't, is up for debate. We can simultaneously be glad that it works for people, and also glad to see the current wave of skepticism about AA, and a recognition that it is not for everyone.

The main thing that's helped me in seeking moderation is to limit my drinking to drinks that bring joy.

If any particular drink is about pleasure, it seems reasonable to me to allow myself to have it. Joy about a particular wine/food pairing, excitement about a new and interesting beer, toasting a convivial moment with friends, celebrating a new job or a wedding. Even something like a cold beer in reward for having mowed the lawn on a hot day can be joyous. The point is to want that specific drink in that specific moment, not just drink because there's still some beers in the fridge.

If the drink is about something other than pleasure, it's best to pass. Non-joyful reasons for drinking may include habit, oblivion, Silencing the Voices, avoiding the world, trying to blot out the memory of a difficult day, and drinking Just Because. Perhaps this last one is the worst culprit. If you plan to drink five beers, beer 1 might be refreshing. And beer 5 might feel like you've scaled a mountain. But beers 2 through 4 are just there because they're stepping stones on the way to the buzz you think you want.

I'm not going to moralize against drinking to get buzzed, or even to get drunk. These can be pleasurable feelings, and it's no surprise that people seek them out. But one of the cruel things about accumulated tolerance is that it takes more and more booze to get you to that pleasurable state, and that can be a deadly spiral. So if you want a buzz, my advice is to plan for a buzz. Choose your drinks wisely, enjoy them, and compress them in time in a way that makes sense for the effect you seek. Stay safe, and make sure you don't hurt anybody else in the process.

you missing the drink or the habit of drinking or the situations youd be drinking in or does it not help for me to list shit

― irl lol (darraghmac), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 11:29 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what's happening is that the reasons i drink are being severely underlined by strong cravings at their occurrence that i have to struggle not to act on.

last night in a fit i arrived home, stormed over to the fridge, tore the bottlecap off a club soda & threw it out the window before downing a bunch of fizzy water and retreating to my room for a long phone call with a friend.

If any particular drink is about pleasure, it seems reasonable to me to allow myself to have it. Joy about a particular wine/food pairing, excitement about a new and interesting beer, toasting a convivial moment with friends, celebrating a new job or a wedding. Even something like a cold beer in reward for having mowed the lawn on a hot day can be joyous. The point is to want that specific drink in that specific moment, not just drink because there's still some beers in the fridge.

If the drink is about something other than pleasure, it's best to pass. Non-joyful reasons for drinking may include habit, oblivion, Silencing the Voices, avoiding the world, trying to blot out the memory of a difficult day, and drinking Just Because. Perhaps this last one is the worst culprit. If you plan to drink five beers, beer 1 might be refreshing. And beer 5 might feel like you've scaled a mountain. But beers 2 through 4 are just there because they're stepping stones on the way to the buzz you think you want.

this is powerful stuff.

the reasons i drink are being severely underlined by strong cravings at their occurrence

this is bad phrasing--i'm the reason i drink, i just have my excuses.

Cravings happen. If a craving is driving you to bad places, however, you will need to either find the willpower to resist that craving, or somehow acquire that willpower. I don't want to sound all Puritanical 'n' shit, but there it is.

Me, I recently got a series of nasty health wakeup calls that require major lifestyle change. I am supposed to mostly stay away from beef, seafood, bacon, cheese, eggs, butter, and of course alcohol (alcohol in general, but beer specifically). In other words, pretty much everything that is fun and that brings joy to life. If they threw in sex and music, I'd have nothing left. So trying to eat oatmeal instead of bacon, eat falafel instead of steak, and drink water instead of beer requires a lot of vigilance. But reduction as a goal is a lot easier than abstinence.

don't need a drink.

don't need a drink.

i am gonna fill this fucking bottle with water and drink it

Surf the urge, hoos! It too shall pass!

<3

I got through it by talking to no one in particular on Twitter, oddly enough.

would posting nudie pics of Marco Rubio drive you to drink more or less

lol

luck hoos

thx every1

baby steps, hoos. u can do it <3

Then there are people who drink heavily, but are not necessarily chemically dependent. They may never get a chance to find whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not. Partly because they live in an alcohol-soaked culture (as does everyone in the West). In our culture, the most hospitable, civilized, and social thing you can do is offer someone a drink. Someone comes over to your house for dinner, and they bring a bottle of wine. You go to your bother-in-law's house to watch the football game, and you bring some beers. You want to have sex with someone? Start by buying them a drink. You go into a restaurant and the server comes by and asks you what you want to drink.

― Ye Mad Puffin, Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:50 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This post is so good and I think of it so often that I wanted to quote it just so it shows up in my recent post history for easy reference. Thanks for sharing, sincerely

I mean, the whole post is great, as are many of the posts on this thread, but that particular section is such a high mark of otm-ness.

Hope y'all are doing good out there, btw

so, then, how does one figure out "whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not?" not sure what the answer is in my case, but very sure that things are better for me and I'm a better person w/o the booze.

It seems to me that purely chemical dependence would manifest itself in symptoms which, at least at their start, are physical. Then you get the psychological feedback knowing your body is essentially asking for booze, and then you're off to the fucking races of a "Cannot WAIT until 5 o'clock" day.

I have greatly reduced my intake these last few months, and am much more vigilant as to how many I have when I do. Very happy to have made the change, for sure.

"so, then, how does one figure out "whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not?"

It's never a bad idea to slow down or stop drinking for a while and see how you feel. Withdrawal can entail both physical and psychological symptoms (as B.L.A.M. describes).

Personally, I love drinking. I sincerely and unapologetically love it (sorry not sorry). The beverages are tasty, the sensation of a mild buzz is quite nice, and booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds. But I also really really really don't want alcohol to fuck up my marriage, family, job, or life. That takes vigilance.

And as a philosophical matter, I don't like being told what to do by... a beverage. Roughly: if it's ME deciding to open a beer, I open the beer. If I even suspect that a beer is saying "DRINK ME," I prefer to leave it in the fridge.

It helps to be contrary sometimes.

Ive a pretty good scotch shelf that I pass unnoticed for weeks on end and this strikes me as a vg balance

I need to get better at moderating intake when out in groups but one must be realistic I guess.

booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds. booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds.booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds.

otm. otm. otm.

In my opinion, if you can pass your scotch shelf you are probably not an alcoholic. If you even HAVE a "scotch shelf," that means you care about the tastes of specific scotches. You might have moods that correspond with different malts, blends, distilleries. An alcoholic craves not these things.

One time I happened to be out with my father and brother, and my brother ordered a chocolate martini. My father (who was both a former drunk and a reasonably well-regarded expert in the field) breathed a visible sigh of relief. Because no true alcoholic, he said, is going to order such a girly-ass drink as a fucking "chocolate martini."

Darraghmac, I suspect your drinking is probably more about taste and joy, rather than seeking oblivion or Silencing the Monster Within. If you pick up a drink because you want it, cool (within reason). If you are picking it up to Silence the Beast Within, please seek help.

I really appreciate your perspective here, Puffin

also, that story is hliarious

Because no true alcoholic, he said, is going to order such a girly-ass drink as a fucking "chocolate martini."

You know I would actually dispute this having worked at a college bar

(but also agree w/the general high quality of ye mad puff's posts itt)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6sPgQlCQGA

In my opinion, if you can pass your scotch shelf you are probably not an alcoholic. If you even HAVE a "scotch shelf," that means you care about the tastes of specific scotches. You might have moods that correspond with different malts, blends, distilleries. An alcoholic craves not these things.

Nah this is not true at all.

so, then, how does one figure out "whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not?"

Pretty sure the answer is in whether or not you experience withdrawal symptoms when you stop drinking.

x-post - and yeah I don't think that is true at all either

it's not

chemical dependence can be induced if you drink enough for long enough, the predisposition in yr soul may be a bit more complex than a simple genetic trigger. i know there are lots of professionals who do great work for their clients and change lives and save lives but i am wary of any simple causal account for all problem drinking, and wary of a hard line between alcoholism and problem drinking to be honest

situation plays so much of a part in all addictive or self-destructive behaviour

wary of a hard line between alcoholism and problem drinking to be honest

same

btw by way of update, i've mostly done well here--this has been a bad week, and i've found myself suddenly called to drinking in inappropriate places at inappropriate times, but my measured roll off has gone well overall and even my slips backwards have been unusu,ally cognizant and self-aware: "do you really want to drink this right now, knowing you'll feel fine in 30 minutes if you don't?" i've yet to decide how much this helps. but i have a better sense than ever of what drives my problem drinking, and i think that's a valuable thing.