I'm an alcoholic

joygoat, my father is both an alcoholic (about 40 years sober) and a pretty well-respected alcoholism therapist / administrator of treatment programs / expert in the rehab field. I think his stance would be roughly as follows:

There is a group of people who are disposed (probably genetically) to be chemically dependent. Their bodies crave a substance (in this case, alcohol) out of all proportion. They cannot control these cravings, so their drinking is not a moral weakness but rather a disease. These people should not drink, because if they drink at all their bodies will want more next time, and still more the next time, etc. They have a physical addiction that entails a deadly spiral of diminishing returns.

What these people need to do is stop drinking immediately - and then continue to "actively not-drink" for the rest of their lives. This may require pretty much constant vigilance, because slipping a little tends to lead to slipping a lot.

Okay.

Then there are people who drink heavily, but are not necessarily chemically dependent. They may never get a chance to find whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not. Partly because they live in an alcohol-soaked culture (as does everyone in the West). In our culture, the most hospitable, civilized, and social thing you can do is offer someone a drink. Someone comes over to your house for dinner, and they bring a bottle of wine. You go to your bother-in-law's house to watch the football game, and you bring some beers. You want to have sex with someone? Start by buying them a drink. You go into a restaurant and the server comes by and asks you what you want to drink.

Most of the people in Group 1 and a goodly proportion of the people in Group 2 will end up doing deeply stupid things under the influence. They will vomit in inappropriate places; they will crash cars and hurt people; they will lose jobs, houses, wives; they will die miserable and alone.

The trouble is that Group 2 includes people who ought to be in Group 1, but also people who are just drunkards with poor self-control. Those people should probably cut back. And they should only drink in safe situations (designated drivers, rooms full of soft furniture, plenty of hydration, no vulnerable ex-girlfriends around). But moderation is probably possible for them.

I don't believe heavy drinking can "become" chemical dependency any more than you can give yourself AIDS. You either have it or you don't.

Non-chemically-dependent heavy drinkers may have a very difficult time slowing down. They may even suspect that they're addicted. But that's partly because they've never really tried not drinking, and partly because we live in a culture where it's almost weird to not drink. Indeed, in some situations you call attention to yourself if you decline.

Afterthought: some alcoholics don't even drink all that much, it's just that their drinking is disordered. Secretive... anxious... mandatory for rudimentary functioning. (1990s PSA: "If you need a drink to be social, that's not social drinking.")

At the same time, some heavy drinkers can do a hell of a lot of drinking without affecting their lives negatively. If you had a heroic amount of self-control you could probably down three beers a night and still be a good parent, spouse, friend, employee, and citizen. You might fall asleep in front of the TV every now and then, but if you don't beat your wife, lose your job, crash your car, or remove your pants at the office, perhaps you're not harming anyone.

At the same time, some heavy drinkers can do a hell of a lot of drinking without affecting their lives negatively. If you had a heroic amount of self-control you could probably down three beers a night and still be a good parent, spouse, friend, employee, and citizen. You might fall asleep in front of the TV every now and then, but if you don't beat your wife, lose your job, crash your car, or remove your pants at the office, perhaps you're not harming anyone.

― Ye Mad Puffin, Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:12 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is what an ex gf told me a couple of years ago--she said I wasn't an alcoholic because, even if I was drinking to excess every night, it didn't seem to be harming my life significantly, so there were no consequences that I was ignoring to continue drinking.

Had my first drink of the week last night. It made me inordinately sleepy, and I woke up with something of a headache. Sheesh.

good posts puffin

she said I wasn't an alcoholic because, even if I was drinking to excess every night

Not only may this be true, but from what you've revealed of yourself on ILX across the years, it is likely to be true, in Ye Mad Puffin's sense that you are probably not chemically dependent. However, if you have been drinking to excess every night for long periods, you have developed a de facto dependence on alcohol. It is good to back off, consciously and deliberately, so you can start using other methods for getting through your days and nights, ones that have a less deleterious effects on your system.

Glad to hear you are making progress.

Echoing Aimless - your ex-gf may have been right, but you are also right to cut back.

Excessive drinking may be habitual, escapist, and unhealthful, without necessarily being addictive.

Some people's beef with AA is that it treats both kinds of drinking as the same, and gives the same prescription for both. Another common criticism of AA is that in AA terms, anyone who thinks they're an alcoholic is an alcoholic. And anyone who doesn't think they're an alcoholic is in denial, so in practical terms everyone's an alcoholic and they should all be in AA.

Last night, on a long car ride to a bus station, same ex-gf gave me the long pitch for why she thought "SMART" & the CBT-driven approach weren't gonna work for me: "you need someone [a sponsor] who's been through this before to go through this with you." Proceeded to evangelize the 12 steps for an hour as we went down the highway. I tried to listen gamely, but she's deep in--been in the program for near 10 years--and there's no brook for backtalk.

I think I'll stick with my approach, at least for now.

it really sounds like a viable option, hoos. what really turned me off aa was the same kind of "we're all sinners here saved by the grace of god" vibe that is something i have to avoid even more than alcohol because of my rotten experiences with it. the atlantic article posits it as something culturally unique to the u.s. which is probably true. personally i think it's an addiction in its own right.

As long as you are thoroughly convinced that this is a step you need to take and you keep that thought firmly in the forefront of your mind, it will succeed for you. When you find yourself rationalizing, beware.

Addiction medicine in this country is horrendous, but improving.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

Everybody should be getting Naltrexone and advised about the Sinclair method.

Well ok not "everybody" but you get it

Thanks for this, Tom. I'm definitely gonna look into it.

If you believe "A History of the World in Six Glasses," beer started out as liquid bread. Indeed, the origins of agriculture, bread, and beer are so intertwined (or so goes this theory) that the first breads were basically just a way to store the ingredients of beer - then someone figured out that it would be a decent foodstuff on its own. So anthropologically speaking, bread is just a solid form of beer and beer is just a liquid form of bread.

Of course, this is probably complete hooey (as so many of those "history seen through the lens of X" books are). I know a guy who got through a semester abroad by realizing that his meal plan could get him either a paltry meal, or a decent amount of stout - and he almost always chose the stout as both more filling and more caloric than the food.

I recall Braudel in Civilization & Capitalism: Structures of Everyday Life discussing tendency of beer to substitute for bread in times of shortage? but I destroyed the book to make fun poem collages so can't look it up now :/

... sorry, a bit off-topic there
: :
/ /

I don't believe heavy drinking can "become" chemical dependency - can't it though? Alcohol is a drug and if someone is drinking extremely high levels of it their body will need it to function and they'll become violently ill if they don't have it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that alcohol withdrawal is one of the few withdrawals that can actually kill a person. I guess maybe you're saying that those in the second category you were describing can't become genetically predisposed like the first through heavy drinking but if they're drinking enough for any reason then they can become chemically dependent on it.

Right, you can't drink yourself into genetic predisposition to chemical dependency but you can, chronically, drink yourself into chemical dependency?

I think that you can, yes.

you can

I think I started to feel the beginnings of that a few weeks ago, when I woke up, went to work, *didn't* drink, and was hit with nausea & shakes & sweating by the time I sat down at my desk.

gbx what are your thoughts on naltrexone? obv I can Pubmed to my heart's content, but interested in your opinion specifically y'know.

Right, you can't drink yourself into genetic predisposition to chemical dependency but you can, chronically, drink yourself into chemical dependency?

yes duh

Substitute any drug known to be addictive, not having a predisposition ≠ immunity to eg crack

Sooo circling back then since this was sparked by one of Puffin's lovely long comments

thoughts on this Puffin?

Hows it going

you missing the drink or the habit of drinking or the situations youd be drinking in or does it not help for me to list shit

gbx what are your thoughts on naltrexone? obv I can Pubmed to my heart's content, but interested in your opinion specifically y'know.

― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 4:05 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

solidly pro at this point --- don't have a lot of clinical experience with it, but i'm hoping to get more. addiction psych is on my shortlist of areas of interest

addiction psych is on my shortlist of areas of interest

^^^good bro, thanking u :)

I think that habitual heavy drinkers do get physically conditioned to expect a regular buzz. This is bound up with simple force of habit - drinking every day makes a drink-free day seem wrong.

Plus the psychological type of addiction - the feeling that you can't cope without the insulation of booze between you and life. This makes you less and less able to marshal your own internal resources to the task of Dealing With Shit.

And yeah, there will be withdrawal symptoms. Also, the feeling Hoos mentioned that after a while without a drink, the first one or two are going to hit you pretty hard.

If this is where someone is, they are right to try to get out from under it, and to restore some control.

FWIW I still think that inescapable chemical dependency is a different creature from habitual heavy drinking / problem drinking, but in some senses it doesn't matter at this point. If you feel out of control, you should regain control via a means that makes sense for you.

Then the question becomes whether AA and complete abstinence are the right way out, or some other way is the right way out. Once you're not so underwater, perhaps then is the time to parse the finer points of physical vs. psychological addiction.

For the last ~10 months, I've been doing outpatient treatment. 3 group sessions per week, one individual session with a counselor per week. The program's given me something resembling a support network (helpful after years of isolating myself) + education in terms of stress management/setting boundaries/clarifying my personal values. I've gone from drinking every day to drinking maybe once every 2 months (if I get super pissed/stressed about something). The program I'm in really pushes people to attend AA meetings... I still haven't gone because it sounds really really like not my bag at all, but I'm going to finally (hopefully) give it a shot this coming Saturday.

Exercise and meditation have been helpful for me as well.

Congrats and keep at it! And don't write AA off too quickly - meetings I've been to have been very welcoming and not at all God-based, and often hilarious. Ppl are very, very into the program. Just be prepared to filter some of that stuff out so you can take what you need from the mtg. Good luck.

If the goal is never ever drinking again, AA appears to work for a lot of people. Except for the people it doesn't work for. Whether they truly can't do it, or just won't, is up for debate. We can simultaneously be glad that it works for people, and also glad to see the current wave of skepticism about AA, and a recognition that it is not for everyone.

The main thing that's helped me in seeking moderation is to limit my drinking to drinks that bring joy.

If any particular drink is about pleasure, it seems reasonable to me to allow myself to have it. Joy about a particular wine/food pairing, excitement about a new and interesting beer, toasting a convivial moment with friends, celebrating a new job or a wedding. Even something like a cold beer in reward for having mowed the lawn on a hot day can be joyous. The point is to want that specific drink in that specific moment, not just drink because there's still some beers in the fridge.

If the drink is about something other than pleasure, it's best to pass. Non-joyful reasons for drinking may include habit, oblivion, Silencing the Voices, avoiding the world, trying to blot out the memory of a difficult day, and drinking Just Because. Perhaps this last one is the worst culprit. If you plan to drink five beers, beer 1 might be refreshing. And beer 5 might feel like you've scaled a mountain. But beers 2 through 4 are just there because they're stepping stones on the way to the buzz you think you want.

I'm not going to moralize against drinking to get buzzed, or even to get drunk. These can be pleasurable feelings, and it's no surprise that people seek them out. But one of the cruel things about accumulated tolerance is that it takes more and more booze to get you to that pleasurable state, and that can be a deadly spiral. So if you want a buzz, my advice is to plan for a buzz. Choose your drinks wisely, enjoy them, and compress them in time in a way that makes sense for the effect you seek. Stay safe, and make sure you don't hurt anybody else in the process.

you missing the drink or the habit of drinking or the situations youd be drinking in or does it not help for me to list shit

― irl lol (darraghmac), Wednesday, June 24, 2015 11:29 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what's happening is that the reasons i drink are being severely underlined by strong cravings at their occurrence that i have to struggle not to act on.

last night in a fit i arrived home, stormed over to the fridge, tore the bottlecap off a club soda & threw it out the window before downing a bunch of fizzy water and retreating to my room for a long phone call with a friend.

If any particular drink is about pleasure, it seems reasonable to me to allow myself to have it. Joy about a particular wine/food pairing, excitement about a new and interesting beer, toasting a convivial moment with friends, celebrating a new job or a wedding. Even something like a cold beer in reward for having mowed the lawn on a hot day can be joyous. The point is to want that specific drink in that specific moment, not just drink because there's still some beers in the fridge.

If the drink is about something other than pleasure, it's best to pass. Non-joyful reasons for drinking may include habit, oblivion, Silencing the Voices, avoiding the world, trying to blot out the memory of a difficult day, and drinking Just Because. Perhaps this last one is the worst culprit. If you plan to drink five beers, beer 1 might be refreshing. And beer 5 might feel like you've scaled a mountain. But beers 2 through 4 are just there because they're stepping stones on the way to the buzz you think you want.

this is powerful stuff.

the reasons i drink are being severely underlined by strong cravings at their occurrence

this is bad phrasing--i'm the reason i drink, i just have my excuses.

Cravings happen. If a craving is driving you to bad places, however, you will need to either find the willpower to resist that craving, or somehow acquire that willpower. I don't want to sound all Puritanical 'n' shit, but there it is.

Me, I recently got a series of nasty health wakeup calls that require major lifestyle change. I am supposed to mostly stay away from beef, seafood, bacon, cheese, eggs, butter, and of course alcohol (alcohol in general, but beer specifically). In other words, pretty much everything that is fun and that brings joy to life. If they threw in sex and music, I'd have nothing left. So trying to eat oatmeal instead of bacon, eat falafel instead of steak, and drink water instead of beer requires a lot of vigilance. But reduction as a goal is a lot easier than abstinence.

don't need a drink.

don't need a drink.

i am gonna fill this fucking bottle with water and drink it

Surf the urge, hoos! It too shall pass!

<3

I got through it by talking to no one in particular on Twitter, oddly enough.

would posting nudie pics of Marco Rubio drive you to drink more or less

lol

luck hoos

thx every1

baby steps, hoos. u can do it <3

Then there are people who drink heavily, but are not necessarily chemically dependent. They may never get a chance to find whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not. Partly because they live in an alcohol-soaked culture (as does everyone in the West). In our culture, the most hospitable, civilized, and social thing you can do is offer someone a drink. Someone comes over to your house for dinner, and they bring a bottle of wine. You go to your bother-in-law's house to watch the football game, and you bring some beers. You want to have sex with someone? Start by buying them a drink. You go into a restaurant and the server comes by and asks you what you want to drink.

― Ye Mad Puffin, Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:50 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This post is so good and I think of it so often that I wanted to quote it just so it shows up in my recent post history for easy reference. Thanks for sharing, sincerely

I mean, the whole post is great, as are many of the posts on this thread, but that particular section is such a high mark of otm-ness.

Hope y'all are doing good out there, btw

so, then, how does one figure out "whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not?" not sure what the answer is in my case, but very sure that things are better for me and I'm a better person w/o the booze.

It seems to me that purely chemical dependence would manifest itself in symptoms which, at least at their start, are physical. Then you get the psychological feedback knowing your body is essentially asking for booze, and then you're off to the fucking races of a "Cannot WAIT until 5 o'clock" day.

I have greatly reduced my intake these last few months, and am much more vigilant as to how many I have when I do. Very happy to have made the change, for sure.

"so, then, how does one figure out "whether they're chemically dependent (alcoholic) or not?"

It's never a bad idea to slow down or stop drinking for a while and see how you feel. Withdrawal can entail both physical and psychological symptoms (as B.L.A.M. describes).

Personally, I love drinking. I sincerely and unapologetically love it (sorry not sorry). The beverages are tasty, the sensation of a mild buzz is quite nice, and booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds. But I also really really really don't want alcohol to fuck up my marriage, family, job, or life. That takes vigilance.

And as a philosophical matter, I don't like being told what to do by... a beverage. Roughly: if it's ME deciding to open a beer, I open the beer. If I even suspect that a beer is saying "DRINK ME," I prefer to leave it in the fridge.

It helps to be contrary sometimes.

Ive a pretty good scotch shelf that I pass unnoticed for weeks on end and this strikes me as a vg balance

I need to get better at moderating intake when out in groups but one must be realistic I guess.

booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds. booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds.booze has rich and varied cultural and aesthetic surrounds.

otm. otm. otm.