THE GAME OF THRONES/ASOIAF SPOILER THREAD (WARNING: SPOILERS)

Roberto yes that's exactly what I think they'll do in the show

yeah, once i saw that Melisandre was back at Castle Black, I figured she would resurrect him

It doesn't seem that there is any good reason to kill Jon off entirely. All the other major character deaths were interesting because of how everyone had to react and the new dynamics that filled the void. Not enough story elements around Jon get disturbed with his death. He's on a much longer arc that I believe will continue with him back in the picture at some point.

~jon snow~ is definitely dead yup yup. long live azor ahai hm hm...

"we said jon snow was dead... we didn't say jon snow wolf creature was dead"

so if he is brought back to life would he still be bound to the Night's Watch?

he's supposedly a more powerful worger than Bran, yet we've seen little evidence of that. Maybe this plot point forces him to step up his body riding skills

did he ever worg in the show

nope

he's a dragon now

nice

The showrunners claimed that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in the books as well. How is he going to do that, if he dies outside of Winterfell? Shireen is still at the wall, right? And what was the burning about, if he was going to lose the battle anyway? And where is Theon and Sansa supposed to go if there's no army outside? And how did Melisandre get to the wall so quickly? And...

This whole show is such an incoherent mess. I don't think GRRM should be sad that the show is getting ahead of the books, because they have proved that they are incapable of telling any kind of coherent story.

Stop pacing

To my surprise I'm coming around to the stannis lives pov a little bit

How is he going to do that, if he dies outside of Winterfell?

he's...probably gonna do that under different circumstances...because the books will play out differently, i'm not sure what the issue is here

And how did Melisandre get to the wall so quickly?

considerable periods of time pass between certain episodes! some resume immediately like the s3 finale after the red wedding but usually it's anywhere from a few days to a month

god the cersei walk of shame thing was grueling to watch. I knew it was gonna happen, but they really nailed it.

Unless Stannis survives the battle, I don't see how he can burn Shireen. So SPOILER, I guess... And wasn't Melisandre at the camp in the beginning of the episode, or did I get that wrong? (I don't think that much time happened after Shireen burned. That kinda makes no sense.)

*sigh* relentless plausibility policing in genre fiction is a fool's errand, i'm not sure why this is so bothersome

also...survives what battle? as far as the books have gone there hasn't been a battle between stannis and the boltons yet. he could summon for his wife and kid and sacrifice her and then die in battle or who knows what? we'll find out when the books come out! a zillion things could happen. they are now two entirely distinct entities that share characters, basically.

http://blog.codinghorror.com/content/images/uploads/2011/09/6a0120a85dcdae970b017616b267ca970c-pi.jpg

Oh come on slothrop. If pointing out immense plotholes is a pointless waste of time, then what is making up bullshit defenses of them?

*sigh* relentless plausibility policing in genre fiction is a fool's errand, i'm not sure why this is so bothersome

when you're creating a world out of whole cloth internal consistency and verisimilitude are all the more important! yr ability to sell "dragons" or "zombies" to the reader hinges in part on the readers ability to accept as true the stuff that she can relate to her own real-world experience or knowledge

iow "who cares how this implausible thing happened when there's MAGIC in the world??" is confusing categories of plausibility

This is not a mystery novel. we don't need to know how fast melisandre rode her horse and compare it to how long a raven with medium wingspan takes to fly from Winterfell to the Wall on a warm day.

xxxp didn't think pointing out how an adaptation and its source material have diverged (and will continue to do so) is inherently bullshit - or a defense, really, just a statement - but i also don't wish to turn this into a tete-a-tete, we can agree to disagree

This is not a mystery novel. we don't need to know how fast melisandre rode her horse and compare it to how long a raven with medium wingspan takes to fly from Winterfell to the Wall on a warm day.

Is that raven from Essos or Westeros?

max agreed that you need to stick to the internal logic of a fictional universe as it's established, but there's a question of degree i guess?

something that would be worth pointing out, by contrast, is that it seemed like stannis went from father of the year to child-burner in what didn't seem like a ton of time, bc it relates to the inherent nature of a character as it was established and played out - those sort of inconsistencies are what bothers me, when they occur.

max i don't think the points sloth and Frederik were debating hinged on internal consistency, more of an order of events and character locations hang up.

It's entirely plausible that in the books Stannis will lay siege to Winterfell rather than be slaughtered upon arrival, so he will have time to send for his daughter when he gets desperate.

In the books, both armies are pretty much stuck in a snowstorm, waiting for it to clear up, right? The idea that they will then wait for Shireen to turn up, to burn her, to do... what? In the books the snowstorm is the biggest problem. For Shireen to get there, the snowstorm has to stop. Why would he then burn her? Also, Ramsey already sent a raven saying that Stannis is dead, and Shireen hasn't gone there yet. He's lying, if they have to burn Shireen first. So SPOILER.

Maybe she stays alive.

But then the showrunners are lying. (I read that the people assisting GRRM with the books were PISSED that they 'spoiled' that the daughter-burning scene would take place in the books as well.)

I'm sure he'll figure out how to work it in nicely.

Here: http://www.salon.com/2015/06/14/stop_defending_game_of_thrones_how_hbo_gutted_the_stories_i_love/

the books and the show are different and that's okay and people should just accept that imo

something that would be worth pointing out, by contrast, is that it seemed like stannis went from father of the year to child-burner in what didn't seem like a ton of time, bc it relates to the inherent nature of a character as it was established and played out - those sort of inconsistencies are what bothers me, when they occur.

I don't see this as inconsistent at all. Stannis has constantly been shown as being all-consumed with becoming the king; sacrificing his daughter, even though it did hurt him to do so, seems entirely in character to me, particularly after murdering his brother several seasons ago by having extramarital sex that lead to the birth of a killer smoke monster.

Well, his rival brother is a little different than his beloved daughter.

Overall, the time between loving father with large strong army to desperate commander of dwindling army that burns his beloved daughter alive felt a little short. If that's what sloth was getting at.

^^^yes that is correct, "inconsistency" is not the proper word for that particular issue

Overall, the time between loving father with large strong army to desperate commander of dwindling army that burns his beloved daughter alive felt a little short. If that's what sloth was getting at.

I don't even know if I'd call him "loving"; their scenes definitely could be read that way (and Shireen's reaction reinforces that reading), but it could also be read as "possessive". He cares about her because she is his; because she is his, he will fight anything that tries to take her away from him but is also willing to make a decision that would call for her sacrifice.

Every action he's taken thus far has been in service of making the kingdom his; he's never made a choice that could be read as stepping back from that goal. Even before, when he balked at sacrificing his daughter, he had access to another young person of his blood line that could be used to fuel the magic Melisandre was casting plus he had other options at his disposal that could be considered forward progress. When he burned his daughter, the only choices presented to him were sacrifice her or turn back from Winterfell. I don't believe there's anything in the way Stannis's character was drawn that makes any path other than sacrificing Shireen the logical, inevitable choice, and furthermore I thought they did an excellent job of showing how that choice weighed on him as she died.

I don't get why people keep pointing out that the show and the books are different. That's not really the point. I'm not complaining that the show is changing things, but that their changes are nonsensical.

Also, if the show and books are separate, then it's pretty hypocritical of the showrunners to hide behind the books when they do controversial things, as in the link I just posted, right?

Really, I'm complaining because the only thing I like about asoiaf is the world building, and the show consistently dispels with that in favor of boobs and rape. What does Stannis' loss imply for the power of R'hllor? I have no faith in D&D to have thought about that at all.

Game of Boobs and Rape

Game of Gropes

What does Stannis' loss imply for the power of R'hllor? I have no faith in D&D to have thought about that at all.

― Frederik B, Monday, June 15, 2015

not sure why it's so important that this be established definitively at this juncture or made the subject of some long onscreen hashing-out. melisandre looked appropriately shook when she arrived as castle black but we also know the game ain't done and it's p likely bolton banners will burn before it's all over. gods do things in their own ways...

not sure why you're quoting me when you're discussing made up viewpoints far from what I'm talking about?

Because your words are like honey

Game of Rape and Honey

um... because I am addressing your question?

Not really?

If my words are like honey - and I agree, they are, and the finest of honey, from the vast flower fields of the reach - why put different ones in my mouth? Especially since those words are like overcooked smallfolk barley stew.

haha wow okay ttfn maybe check back when they adapt http://www.amazon.com/The-World-Ice-Fire-Westeros/dp/0553805444 for the teevee