HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

The equivalent scene in the source text isn't in the source text though, as it involves a character that isn't in the TV version at all (I realise I'm skirting the thread title here) - anything they did would be a change.

Considering it was a change from the books, they could have done it differently

― Mistah FAAB (sarahell), Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:30 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

literarily anything in any work of art could be done differently

The Mary Sue has a solid view on it.

― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:35 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha thats the one i stopped read, genuinely odd

I think you're arguing semantic there, but it's obvious what event in the book maps onto the event in the show. xp

it felt gratuitous, esp. in the larger context of the jamie/circe rapey scene from last season that wasn't portrayed as such in the book.

if the complaint is that it happened to one character and not another, that's not much of a moral stand to take against the depiction of rape as a cheap device in fiction

xp -- not to spoil anything, but the only "necessary" things plot wise are:

1. Theon is forced to watch/participate in something horrible Ramsay does to a woman he knew from his time at Winterfell (in the book it was Sansa's bff).
2. Something horrible happens to the woman so that she would want to potentially escape
3. Ramsay is an evil sociopath (which could be argued has already been conveyed adequately)

There is a lot of leeway with how to script and visually depict these plot points

I used to think this show was just about power struggles, but I'm beginning to think it's core reason for existing is to continually test the audience's capacity for shock

the power struggle stuff has gradually receded and/or become incomprehensibly convoluted but the murderboobs quotient abides as a central focus

but I'm beginning to think it's core reason for existing is to continually test the audience's capacity for shock

surely this has been obvious from the finale of season one?

the mary sue piece isnt badly written or not understandable per se but its def moving the goalposts, like why didn't you stop watching the series pilot when drogo has sex with dany in a way that most rational people (myself included!) would term rape or at the very fucking least deficient consent

that said, perhaps the most pressing real problem is the way the camera lingers on theon's face during it, and while i understand that as a way to not actually show us what's happening and kind of appreciate it for that reason, it is inevitably going to imply that the assault is notable in the story for how it makes theon/reek feel rather than uh the victim of sexual assault - whether that's what the benioff/weiss braintrust intended or not

Did anyone read Alyssa Rosenberg's piece? I thought it was interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/05/19/game-of-thrones-has-always-been-a-show-about-rape/

do people not remember that there is a much more visually disturbing depiction of sexual violence in the pilot of this show? Of a main character? And that character then falls in love with her rapist-husband? this is not remotely new territory for game of thrones is all.

the pilot also includes incest and attempted murder of a child so I guess it's forgiven if no one remembers one of a thousand revolting crimes that are the foundation of this show.

xpost!

Rosenberg piece is great iirc

and they didn't even address it in their little inside the episode feature.

i wonder to what extent this is more audience upset over sympathetic characters experiencing terrible things (ned, red wedding, etc) but it's being mixed up as moral outrage bc the terrible thing is a rape.

surely this has been obvious from the finale of season one?

haha yeah that was def a red flag that something was up. I guess it took awhile for me to realize that this show is not about characters, politics, religion, gender etc., that shit all takes a back seat to I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY MURDERED THOSE BOOBS-type nonsense

xxp

oh ffs shakey

eh I've been tired of this show's ugly nonsense for awhile now

The complaint isn't just that it happened to another character. The complaint is that it happened to a character who's experience couldn't be shown. So the books didn't fail to show the victim's point of view, that was impossible. But the show changed the story, then failed anyways. At least that's how I understand the criticism re book-to-show.

I did shed a tear when they cut off Ned's boobs, it's true

feel like saying that the show is stupid and gratuitous is fine and prob so obvious as to no need mentioning, outlining what you feel is necessary to advance the plot is just like such bizarre behavior, as is qualifying ones own writing about the show as promotion

Before we dive into why we felt this was a choice which would cause us to stop promoting the show, allow us to say something very important: rape is not a necessary plot device. Really think about that before shouting “creative freedom” in our direction, please.

that piece literally is one of the strangest alt-universe approaches to art and what life is like its hard to wrap my mind around

i never made it this far in the books so i don't know if there are things about the alternative storyline that redeem it more in the eyes of critics of the show. it does seem to me that sansa's pov in the show has not been marginalized, and was not in that scene either. ymmv.

do people not remember that there is a much more visually disturbing depiction of sexual violence in the pilot of this show? Of a main character? And that character then falls in love with her rapist-husband? this is not remotely new territory for game of thrones is all.

the pilot also includes incest and attempted murder of a child so I guess it's forgiven if no one remembers one of a thousand revolting crimes that are the foundation of this show.

a lot of people are representing their feelings as "this is the last straw" -- some of those who have read the books (like presumably the Mary Sue writers), see this differently because it was something the writers made up with the idea that, "If you're going to make something up, this is what you come up with?"

is that like a fan fiction website or something?

that said, perhaps the most pressing real problem is the way the camera lingers on theon's face during it, and while i understand that as a way to not actually show us what's happening and kind of appreciate it for that reason, it is inevitably going to imply that the assault is notable in the story for how it makes theon/reek feel rather than uh the victim of sexual assault - whether that's what the benioff/weiss braintrust intended or not

― slothroprhymes, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:01 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my theory is this is all a set up for theon killing ramsey somehow during the battle w/ stannis. like the only way you can go back to liking theon in any way is for him to get rid of an even more worthless human being.

We don't really know what they came up with though. We've seen the event but not the aftermath. That's an important part of the context.

i don't know if there are things about the alternative storyline that redeem it more in the eyes of critics of the show

Hahahaha no.

I wonder what could have made the creators of the show think that throwing in some extra rape wouldn't be a big deal

things to think baout

it's not extra rape tho even - it's the same quantity of rape, just happening between different characters

feel like ive seen more "why is everyone up in arms about this rape!?" sentiment than actual "up in arms about this rape" sentiment

xxp truth bombs

do you have female friends who watch the show, max?

it bums me out that we can't talk about this show without creating a grand unified theory of rape conservation, which may be enough to stop me watching it all together (I'm already on the "no need to watch it live" bandwagon)

the washington post piece is v good, rosenberg's tv writing is always on point

Keep forgetting Theon killed two children.

only Mordy will get this reference (I suspect) but I kinda wonder if anyone has written a defense of GoT as a feminist text a la similar defense of the comic book Fukitor. Like, if Andrea Dworkin wrote a fantasy epic intended to address gender/sexual politics it would by necessity be chockfull of sexual violence, romance would be shown to be an empty cover story for exploitation and degradation, and it would undoubtedly be really unpleasant, kinda like GoT. Martin's politics do seem to lean left and he has done a fair amount to promote women in the industry etc. but it feels like there's a a disparity between those elements of his personality and the sort of lurid way sexual violence is handled in his material.

also in Martin's version all the women are 13 years old

those are westeros years. given the length of seasons that makes everyone like 30.

I don't even know what a year means in Westeros

If the critique was leveled as grrm as well as the show I'd understand it better but the Mary Sue piece seems to be arguing that the show did something wrong that grrm didn't and I don't understand what that is.

imo a year in westeros is like our normal year the thing theyre talking abt as far as winter is a part of some longer non year cycle, this isnt based on anything i havent read the books but they shd adopt my version its a better way to do the plot

and if theres one thing i know its what necessary in a plot u shd listen to me producers of wildly successful tv show

xps shakey, this might be what yr looking for

Did anyone read Alyssa Rosenberg's piece? I thought it was interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/05/19/game-of-thrones-has-always-been-a-show-about-rape/

― polyphonic, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 5:02 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

imo a year in westeros is like our normal year

marked by, if not the seasons then, ... what? are you telling me they've figured out that their planet orbits a sun? seems unlikely

yes I read the Rosenberg piece, which made me think of the Fukitor thing

Did Littlefinger bring Jeyne to the Boltons in the book?

yes

marked by, if not the seasons then, ... what? are you telling me they've figured out that their planet orbits a sun? seems unlikely

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 5:38 PM (35 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think they have seasons then they also have longer magical meta seasons i am just making this up but its better

it's kinda like ice ages and stuff

so there's like Winter with a capital double-u ice age winter and then regular annual lower-case winters?

that makes sense