I was quoting "john carpenter's the thing". 'twas a joke.
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:43 (nineteen years ago) link
Hi Giro. I could get into that - the rational behind the "why," the model underlying the "how" - but I was just starting to go there a few months ago on that star sign thread ( I missed you there! Kenan & oops & Caitlin kept me from getting lonely though), and it wouldn't do any good. Why? Since all of the models, methods, cosmology, even the terminology behind that cosmology (an infuriating matter of semantics...is your "science" different from Babylonian "science" which is related to Hindu "science," et al): etheric bodies, astral bodies, causal bodies, karma, soul, chakra, chi/prana, etc.... all of that is irrevelent regarding empiricism, since it's supposedly to be first accepted as a matter of principle, until it IS subjectively experienced. Is there really an Objective to begin with? Here is where the civilizational/cultural/you name it world-views' schism enters the area of insurmountability...[[[IMO, first the West was wayyy too over on one extreme, leading everything up to Faith but one based on institutionalized societal dogma ie, the Church, as opposed to one that varied based on subjective exoerience, as in the East ((Hinduism, Tibetan Buddhim, Taoism, etc)). NOW, in a very gradual reaction to that extreme, the Western pendulum since the "Enlightenment" has swung wayyy too far to the polar opposite, not leaving anything upto principles that by _definition_ cannot provide an observable and, to respect the SM, copyable manifestation as beholden to empiricism.]]]]
So you can very easily "disprove," or disregard these suspension-of-disbelief-requiring rationals and basic terms/entities, or claim that since they cannot be proven (via the five senses / empiricism), that it's all outside the realm of (Modern/Westen) Science, and therefore in the domain of Faith. Which I think I'm fine with, on one level...
...until I remember that this "domain of Faith" motel room I'm locked in is really nasty, as I'm sharing company numerous people (whom the rest of the West looks upon with disdain! see innumerable election threads!) who believed it's close to End Times, Jesus is returning, and therefore voted for Bush II last night. I hate being here!! It's fucking with my self-identification!
I think the key difference separarating teh Me from Tehm (a new meme?) would be the "personal experience" clause, which even Caitlin expressed above. BUT that gets me in even more trouble, as now I am a) veering dangerously close to the "Other Ppl's 'Irrational' beliefs Are Teh Suck; Mine R00l" stance, and b) skirting (but not unconsciously! after all I'm bringin' it up) the conflation between subjective experience and mental illness/"hallucination," for surely a lot of the people in this room _have_ "experienced" Jesus on a peronal level, and I'm not above doubting that X amount are k-k-krazy.
How do I get out of this room?!?
Basically, I think you have to answer one question yourself before you ask me any others: are there any limits or exceptions to empiricism, or is it irrefutable, and if the former, when and why ?
― Vic (Vic), Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:45 (nineteen years ago) link
I didn't think you were for serious.
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:47 (nineteen years ago) link
― Vic (Vic), Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:52 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ong's Hat, Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:53 (nineteen years ago) link
You can't measure something like creativity or passion b/c it is not inherently physical, although it may leave physical evidence indirectly. That doesn't mean that those things don't exist. However, if you're going to talk about physical things (like surgery, election outcomes) and the like, then yes, I demand empiricism. If you want to talk about emotions, ideas, and other intangibles, then certainly we can at least partially liberate ourselves from empiricism.
I also think that a bit of Occam's Law usually is worth consideration.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:57 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 01:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:01 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:02 (nineteen years ago) link
The book! The film! The simple fact that no proof of fraud was ever found researching Arigo. The work of no other so-called "psychic surgeon" has ever been documented as thoroughly as that of Arigo.
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:03 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:03 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:03 (nineteen years ago) link
(xpost)Quoting the Wikipedia article:Some people have oversimplified Occam's Razor as "The simplest explanation is the best (or true) one".
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:12 (nineteen years ago) link
Yes, and I said that some people over-stated the principle. Occam's Razor is so prevelant that to say a theory is simpler means to state that it has the fewest number of assumptions. Occam's Razor makes no claims about Truth.
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:12 (nineteen years ago) link
And yes, I demand physical "accountability" from physical acts. As we've established.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:17 (nineteen years ago) link
Furthermore, please show me what you'd define as overstating it.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Orbit (Orbit), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:22 (nineteen years ago) link
Check out skepdic's pathetic attempt to classify Chi and note the lump-it-all-together strategy of the article they link to. Chinatown practitioners also call Falun Dafa "quack medicine" just as readily as anyone from the AMA.
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:24 (nineteen years ago) link
That James Randi is a dipshit, skepdic was created by a dipshit and debunkers who use the lump-it-together technique are dipshits. If there is not conclusive evidence to debunk something, it should not be casually dismissed by citing Occam's Razor.
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:27 (nineteen years ago) link
SM, if you have no other explanation for something, it's pretty well worthless in practical terms. Occam's Razor requires a counter-argument to weigh against. There may be a simpler explanation for the surgery, but until it can be provided for the phenomenon is merely an anecdote of no worth.
Example: I come up with a proof for cold fusion. However, I do not write it down before I die, nor do I pass it along. I only announce that I have figured it out. Whether or not I have or haven't actually done this is irrelevant, because it has no practical value in that it can no be reproduced until someone else comes along and shows an empirical solution to the problem.
Face it - you need empiricism for the physical realm.
Thank you.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:33 (nineteen years ago) link
Redfez, would you let him operate on you?
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:36 (nineteen years ago) link
On the one side we can assume that this was a case of fraud. On the other side, we can assume that there are multiple disciplines of psychic science yet to be fully documented.
Which seems the smaller assumption? Remember, if you only provide some plausible empirical explanation for #2, you reduce the assumptions.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:38 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super Guy, Thursday, 4 November 2004 02:58 (nineteen years ago) link
On the one hand you have several examples of fraud that hint at fraud and on the other hand you have several pieces of evidence that suggest a singular aspect of science which has yet to be fully documented-- you can't just lump them together when you feel like it and seperate them when you feel like it. You've purposely used the term "multiple disciplines" of psychic science to add a tone of impossibility to the whole thing, rather than recognizing the obvious similarity and ease of singular classification as one aspect of reality. Yet, these "multiple disciplines" are often lumped together to discredit each other when one case is found to be fraud.
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:05 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super Guy, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:08 (nineteen years ago) link
Maybe they used a Cold Fusion Detector to tell?
― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:11 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super dude, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:15 (nineteen years ago) link
On the other hand, if the inventor at least left behind his equipment, then that could be used to analyse some of the methods used for the experiment.
The point is that empiricism in science is based upon being able to reproduce the result independently given certain standard conditions, based upon understanding of what methods must be used and why they must be used.
If you don't have that, you just have a good story to tell around the campfire and nothing more.
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super Corrector, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― The Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:29 (nineteen years ago) link
― Girolamo Savonarola, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:51 (nineteen years ago) link
― Super, Thursday, 4 November 2004 03:54 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:21 (nineteen years ago) link
No. (And ?!)
This is an unusual thread.
This was my favorite thread ever. It gets my "best of the web" award:
http://www.ronandjoe.com/cheese/silly/red_fez.jpg
― redfez, Thursday, 4 November 2004 04:52 (nineteen years ago) link
Is it completely pointless for me to ask for some cites here? By verifiable, I assume you mean "verifiable by people without some vested interest in believing he can do that".
― Layna Andersen (Layna Andersen), Thursday, 4 November 2004 05:38 (nineteen years ago) link
http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/factfile/factfile1421_1440.aspWeird Science fact # 1422/ It has been demonstrated that humans are able to control their body temperatures to an amazing degree. In one experiment involving skilled yoga practitioners, the yogi was able to change the temperature of two areas of skin just two inches apart by a difference of ten degrees fahrenheit.
http://health.discovery.com/centers/fitness/runsmart/runsmart3.htmlThis article shows that you can not only use your mind to change your body, but that you can use your body to change your mind, which is exactly what Tantra/Yoga is all about.
http://www.newscientist.com/conferences/confarticle.jsp?conf=soneu200011&id=ns9999154This article reaffirms this, specifically citing Yoga.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,106356-1,00.htmlThis article shows that scientific analysis of Yoga is about as controversial as eggs. One study shows one thing, someone else says it's inconclusive. Do you eat the yolks or not?
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_41237.htmScientists at the Medical College of Georgia examined how transcendental meditation decreases constriction of blood vessels and affects the heart’s output. They found that transcendental meditation decreases blood pressure by reducing constriction of the blood vessels and thereby decreases the risk of heart disease. This is yet another study that shows evidence of mind-body connections. While clearing one’s mind and concentrating upon soothing images, one can ease the physical condition of high blood pressure by allowing the body’s blood vessels to dilate. This is not a conscious process in that you are thinking, “please blood vessels dilate” but an awareness process of recognizing the stressors of your everyday life. By becoming aware of your need to take time to relax and release tension you are able to transfer this healthy awareness to your body.
....And here's a whole bunch of articles on Yoga related to physical and mental health:http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=yoga&topic=all&sort=relevance
― Supernatural Man, Thursday, 4 November 2004 13:08 (nineteen years ago) link
I'M BEING SARCASTIC
― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Thursday, 4 November 2004 13:32 (nineteen years ago) link