SARS

Now, that said, let's keep speculation to a minimum and discuss what's actually happening in our communities, and our concerns. Overtly racist stuff (and I'm still not convinced that there has been any, necessarily) will be deleted.

Just as a cautionary note tho: anyone who's familiar with the history of AIDS knows that there was a contingent of gay people who strongly opposed the city of SF shutting down the bathhouses. However, in that case it really was in the public interest to support this measure, not least to keep gay people alive. I mean plenty of right-wing anti-gay whatevas may have supported the measure for all the wrong reasons but if they had been shut down earlier many more ppl. would be alive today. So yeah.

Just wash yr hands after using the bathroom and before eating and cover your mouth when you sneeze. Jesus H. Christ.

BTW am I missing something? I don't pick up anything that could
be seriously classed as racist in the above.

I have a friend who's planning to go to China soon and this sorta put him off a bit but...

Also I think Ms. Laura's comments are a bit off, but honestly we can't pretend that China is up to the same standards as the more modernized world re: health risks, especially lately and in the hellish conditions of the Special Economic Zones in the coastal areas.

On the other hand, dense population is certainly more an issue elsewhere in Asia than in China where urban population is relatively light, tho I think that rural density is still higher than elsewhere. I mean urban overpop. is more a problem in Taiwan for example.

I certainly do not condemn anyone, but I stand by my calling out of certain poorly worded statements above.

1) There are plenty of ex-boyfriends of mine that I would be relieved if they moved to China. For good. Or any other far away country that is nowhere near me.

2) There are some of my ex-boyfriends that I would be *GLAD* if they contracted terrible diseases and died.

I was not implying in any way that these two statements were necessarily connected, other than that there is an outbreak of a terrible disease currently focused in China. The link was that I have an ex-boyfriend (who should be joining us shortly to discuss this - his name is Simon and please be nice to him, as he is a lovely fellow) who I do NOT wish to die horribly or require to relocate to far quarters of the world - who happens to be going to China.

ANYWAY!!! I hope that clears matters up. I am not a racist. I am an equal opportunity misanthrope and I hate all cultures and races equally. Thanks.

The stuff about disease vectors and the like I don't find racist at all, but it seems that is what people are taking offense to. When you have a country where almost medieval scales of poverty and overcrowding live cheek by jowl with very modern technology and global travel - you have a problem. It doesn't matter if that place is modern China or India or Victorian London. To state that this is an epedemiologist's nightmare is not racist, it's an educated guess.

To expand that idea to a hysterical "worry" about *all* Chinese people - whether they are third generation Canadians who have lived in Toronto all their lives, or Chinese tourists who might possibly be from a city 2000 miles away from the epidemic - *THAT* is when you venture into the territories of racism.

I mean, look what happened during the Foot And Mouth hysteria - tourism in the UK ground to a halt, and British passengers were detained at American airports and hosed down with antiseptic. Is that racism?

Smee, Nick just stayed with me for two days and he was *fairly* freaked out about Sars, but felt more susceptible than most people because:

He's on a plane about five times this month; this thing seems to use planes as flying petri dish. Well, planes are flying petri dishes anyway and nobody's gone - YO, AIRLINES, FRESH CABIN AIR! CAPICHE?

Britain's Chinatown is predominantly HK/Cantonese, with people and goods coming in and going out every day. This community is shitting itself about SARS, understandably.

He's going to Japan this summer and thinks the epidemic might spread to there and pick off a few of his friends, even though Japanese people are more conscious about hygiene because of the pop density etc. than western folk (example: it's very rude to blow your nose in public there).

He's paranoid. And has been told off.

Not covering ones mouth or nose when sneezing or coughing is the biggie of course, in this context.

Rather I'd say that there is a different sense of what is unhygenic
and what the taboos are.

My prediction is that unfortunately SARS will turn out to be
pretty serious here, once the authorities get around to admitting
it. And I think Japan is ill-equipped to deal with it, from
several standpoints.

I think you should give me and my country a little bit more credit. Yes the papers are blowing this out of proportion, its knocked the US war off the front prage completely in some papers. I don't think the papers are being antichinese or anti-imigration though, we leave that to the Reform Party.

The local paper says it best there I think.

Kate in PRC Travel Agent role SHOCKAH!

I think my actual problem is the image that some have of people from modern Hong Kong (or Calcutta, or Mexico City for that matter). The people that are flying to 1st World Cities from those places are probably not cavorting with chickens and pigs (and that's not a comment on people who actually Do live in proximity to or work with farm animals). I just feel that the throwaway statements above create prejudices about people based on where they're from (I'm from L.A. and have always had to defend it when traveling). This is definitely Not the same thing as racism. In fact I only brought that word up as a joke on another thread.

The truth is, I think you're all sexist, classist pedophiles.

with good reason. :-D

who (esp. of the more vocal contributors) has actually been to China? Just curious...

hate to say it but it only makes sense that eventually one of these superbugs would incubate and take hold in China - the scary part is that China (via frequent air travel to and from its major cities incl. HK) offers many more vectors for such a disease to take hold. It's an epidemiologist's nightmare.

t's not surprising that stuff is arising in China, though - the proximity of humans, pigs, and chickens makes a ripe breeding ground for transmission and mutation

The stuff about disease vectors and the like I don't find racist at all, but it seems that is what people are taking offense to. When you have a country where almost medieval scales of poverty and overcrowding live cheek by jowl with very modern technology and global travel - you have a problem. It doesn't matter if that place is modern China or India or Victorian London.

People seem to be pointing fingers at where the disease came from and making deregatory statements about China in the process. The same thing happened at the beginning of the AIDS crisis. Who cares if the disease originated in Africa? It doesn't matter. As AIDS demonstrated, and as everyone on this thread has acknowledged, with air travel, these things affect everyone. I think this thread has become a way for people to reinstate the rich-poor, north-south, west-east dichotomy. I think I'm seeing blame -- just as Africa was blamed for AIDS. As everyone realizes, viruses do not respect borders and infect across nationalities. Along with the blame I sense a disdain for countries that are not developed as we are. I've traveled in China and I didn't notice the hellish conditions that people on this thread are implying.

And on anther note:

Not to mention of course the continued hysteria since the sarin gas attack. And it hides the really, really bad teeth of most Japanese people too (no calcium in their diet).

I lived in Japan about a year after the sarin attack and there was no hysteria then, so I find it hard to see how it could be continuing now. As far as I know, that was seen as an isolated incident, and while of course it is troubling, I don't think people wear masks to protect themselves from it, which wouldn't be affective anyway. (They're not gas masks.)

As far as Momus's comment, if it wasn't a parody I have no words for it.

And by the way, I'm not calling anyone on this thread a racist. I wouldn't presume to make that kind of judgment. As I explained elsewhere, my 'delete racist thread' statement was an attempt at humor. I just find some of the statements above offensive.

I've been to Hong Kong, and there are plenty of parts of it - esp. in the New Territories - that resemble any other "peasant" village in any place in the rest of the world (that includes West Virginia! except I didn't see so many cars on cinderblocks in front yards, or front yards for that matter). The only modern, industrialized parts of the city that I can remember were in Kowloon and the parts (but not all) of the main island. We stayed with friends of my mom in a super-nice and expensive townhouse community near the American high school, outside the "Central" part of the main island (where most of the biz stuff is); in the bay beneath it there was an isolated fishing village with no roads leading to it.

The part where I brought up my (soon to be ex) roommate's concern were his concerns, not mine.

Actually, it's Monaco (really!). Bangladesh is it for non-"microcountries" according to a page on about.com

However, the coastal cities of China are indeed incredibly densely populated (as is Taipei).

I have been to China and Taiwan a few times and I can report never having seen a live chicken or pig, let alone had 'intimate' contact with one, Dan. Vast tracts of Shanghai, Hong Kong and other Chinese cities are as clean/hygenic/properous/safe etc.. as any city in the west. I've been to countries and cities that on the surface seem much more likely to be "breeding grounds for disease." It's not something that can automatically be assumed simply because of density or perceived hygeine etc.

And Dyson, although you might call it being overly PC, some of those comments do call to some minds things like "yellow horde", "they all look the same" etc.

(for the record, I think the "city" parts of HK are much cleaner than NYC - esp. the subways.)