Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

The prudent / pragmatic course of action for minorities, most of the time, is to keep their heads down and say nothing. The more negative signal boosting the far right does when they fail to follow that path, the more prudent and pragmatic that becomes. These are not the normal consequences of free speech.

I'm not sure what you mean by "minorities" here, but i just don't think that's true, at least not on campus. In our culture, campus activism (including even attendant negative publicity, especially if it's from the right) is often a way to *gain* cultural capital-- scholarships, political internships, media interviews, etc.

Furthermore, the fact that in a particular case, criticism may come from the right (or be publicized on the right) does not *by itself* invalidate the criticism in that particular case. I don't see things as monolithically and as directed (always left bloc vs. right bloc) as you present them. I think these are normal consequences of free speech-- there are analogues affecting speech on the right as well as left. Which is not to say there aren't societal asymmetries-- but these assymetries are not as clearcut or unilateral as you suggest.

"These students will clearly have considered and been prepared for pushback from within the campus community. "

lol students cmon

The other part not mentioned in the references to "universities" is whether it's public. If so, it can't suppress speech.

"It's entirely reasonable for students who (rightly or wrongly) perceive the film as likely to increase hostility / the possibility of physical harm towards them to ask the administration to show something else instead. It would also be reasonable for the university to take the political / moral stance that their fear outweighed the benefits of showing that particular film."

no its not!

I'm a college media adviser btw and this question comes up all the time at my public state university.

lol @ Cap'n Saveapieceoshitfascistmovie tendency. Keep fighting the good fight u guys

this is definitely that

also even if american sniper is a clear-cut case of dangerous reactionary anti-minority violence ideology (ok i'm a bit skeptical of this, but even if), u know how the left is. they can pretty much demonstrate that anything implicitly reifies the violent hegemony that represses the workers/women/racial group. maybe have one of those guys on every board but force them to sit next to an intense deconstructionist who can just as easily demonstrate how even american sniper is resisting the hegemony and in various lacuna waging a revolutionary critique of capitalism/racism/imperialism/etc

"It's entirely reasonable for students who (rightly or wrongly) perceive the film as likely to increase hostility / the possibility of physical harm towards them to ask the administration to show something else instead.

yes, it's reasonable, given that they're students.

It would also be reasonable for the university to take the political / moral stance that their fear outweighed the benefits of showing that particular film."

a public university that did this would not only open itself to a (deserved) lawsuit, but is eschewing its mission.

lol @ Cap'n Saveapieceoshitfascistmovie tendency. Keep fighting the good fight u guys

― 'come around to your house and fuck your ho' (paraphrase) (Bananaman Begins),

I've seen the movie: it's close to a piece of shit. What are you trying to say?

posting to ILX either way is not only not "fighting a fight" good or bad it is probably not even as much use as thinking about this stuff all alone in ones head without the adverserial impulse or noise

nb I'm only here for the adversaries, noisier the better

I'm here because I know you will all realize I'm right in just a moment.

certainty can be a useful insulator bytimes

http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/files/2010/09/Secret_Adversary_First_Edition_Cover_1922.jpg

To be perfectly honest, I don't care about the movie or whether or not it should be shown. I'm here because I got annoyed at the idea of 'marketplace of free ideas' as some 'classic' ideal that has actually ever existed. Minorites used to have their voice surpressed quite effectively. Now they have so much voice that they can say things that might at times be stupid, at which time they will be punished a billion times harsher than non-minorities in same situation.

lol dropping out of the fight for now

nb haven't see film, little interest in doing so but i guess i'll get around to it at some point

a billion

the good news punchline in all the cases in this thread is that this is still the provence of a very tiny ineffective minority in american cultural life. bananaman is right that american sniper is all over the culture already and there's no threat to it going away anytime soon. no matter how much some ppl on the far left may wish otherwise. if anything, this thread is really a chance for their pov to gain some possible traction in broader intellectual circles, bc it certainly can't be marginalizing anti-free speech reactionaries any more than they've already marginalized themselves.

Xps to Mordy - if the university had banned American Sniper from an independent campus film club I'd see that as more of a curb on freedom of speech than rethinking the wisdom of showing it at a major administration-backed event.

Xps to drash - idk how much cultural capital you're going to generate on campus by getting American Sniper pulled in favour of Paddington but I guess it might depend on the university. Certainly anything relating to race that goes viral via Fox / Drudge is as likely to get you death threats / doxxed (as happened here and in the recent Pitchfork farrago) as it is to enhance your political standing. Perhaps that has to be considered the normal consequences of free speech now, idk. Unless these kids actively want to attract that kind of attention and plan a lifetime of dealing with it it would be much easier to say nothing.

I've seen the movie: it's close to a piece of shit. What are you trying to say?

I'm trying to say hold that thought that its a piece of shit, and think on the implications of its production and huge success, rather than getting bogged down in the pretty irrelevant equivocations of some college film night.

To be perfectly honest, I don't care about the movie or whether or not it should be shown. I'm here because I got annoyed at the idea of 'marketplace of free ideas' as some 'classic' ideal that has actually ever existed. Minorites used to have their voice surpressed quite effectively. Now they have so much voice that they can say things that might at times be stupid, at which time they will be punished a billion times harsher than non-minorities in same situation.

This is quite true and I hadn't started thinking about these ideas until a few year ago, but it's different in the United States, in which the Bill of Rights is supposed to act as protection against government and majoritarianism.

isn't a certain level of martyrdom necessarily to gaining political capital? like you have to demonstrate how loathed you are by yr ideological enemies to really demonstrate how loyal you are to your ideological friends.

bananaman is right that american sniper is all over the culture already and there's no threat to it going away anytime soon. no matter how much some ppl on the far left may wish otherwise.

yeh well done everyone

I'm trying to say hold that thought that its a piece of shit, and think on the implications of its production and huge success, rather than getting bogged down in the pretty irrelevant equivocations of some college film night.

I think the distinction in the Michigan case is that students elected to remove the film, not the university. I have less problems with that. Whether you or I think the film is a piece of shit is irrelevant.

wait who cancelled it? i thought it was cancelled by the university? it looks like it was cancelled by the center for campus involvement: http://campusinvolvement.umich.edu is yr distinction that the org is run by students + not adults so it's not a university decision?

just glancing at their webpage it looks like there's a lot of adults working at the cci

If faculty advisers or vice presidents for student affairs or something had made the call to pull the film, then there's a problem.

Or might be. Nothing may come of this.

Is it the same 'adults' who recommended Paddington the Bear to be a suitable alternative?

nb I would censor thus thread to Ryan drash and mordy rn fwiw
--post you had fecund thoughts about (darraghmac)

they're all arguing the same pt

paddington bear as a suitable alternative is such a good troll btw

They should have made the switch, but kept it a secret to the audience.

If you want trolls it looks like they are showing The Hobbit soon too.

also even if american sniper is a clear-cut case of dangerous reactionary anti-minority violence ideology (ok i'm a bit skeptical of this, but even if), u know how the left is. they can pretty much demonstrate that anything implicitly reifies the violent hegemony that represses the workers/women/racial group. maybe have one of those guys on every board but force them to sit next to an intense deconstructionist who can just as easily demonstrate how even american sniper is resisting the hegemony and in various lacuna waging a revolutionary critique of capitalism/racism/imperialism/etc

― Mordy, Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:41 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is some sub-custos level attempt at humor here.

custos (ˈkʌstɒs)
n, pl custodes (kʌˈstəʊdiːz)
1. (Roman Catholic Church) a superior in the Franciscan religious order. Also called (in England): guardian

?

instead of saying "what if the administration had shown birth of a nation" lets go the other way -- "what if the administration had shown Julian Schnabel's Miral?" What if it had shown You Don't Mess with the Zohan? What if it had shown Valley of the Wolves: Iraq?

Lots of posts since I split a few hours ago. I like what drash & Mordy added in particular.

I by no means was advising either minorities or those with minority political opinions to keep their heads down and take whatever the media dishes out. Nor should they craft their talking points around not triggering Fox News talking points (but more on that later). I also am not a free speech absolutist.

But look, in this bad time, why put themselves in the position of making it look like the university did them this special favor? And a merely symbolic favor at that. How does that actually help their position, how will that in practical terms make the atmosphere at the university more welcoming, something their petition very reasonably asked for?

With a Democratic president in office (well, one who continues the same old foreign policy aims anyway), mainstream liberals have gotten nearly as comfy demonizing Muslims as mainstream conservatives have been, and in the same terms: as fundamentalists who are against free expression.

Why give that bogus narrative any help? This incident turned out even worse, because the decision was reversed, their cause became associated with Paddington, and the football coach rallied the football mentality & even had some kind words for that horrible man. And was able to present "patriotic Americans" as "victims" one more time. Another big boost of energy for the right wing. Try something else.

the worst part of being a college student protesting stuff must be all the terrible advice about how to "really" serve your cause that you get from people who don't give a shit

apparently that's what the montreal student boycotters have been getting from their teachers

I haven't met any protesting students, otherwise I would try to bore them in person. Anyway, I hope YOU aren't too oppressed by, gasp,

There's a whole generation with a new explanation. The kids are where it's at.

y dont u all just f-f-f-ade away

They hoped they'd die before they got old.

feel like the real solomonic play in a situation like this is to screen the movie, but also let the kids who object to it to yell throughout the entire thing

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/04/10/reaction-mixed-showing-american-sniper-university-michigan/25614139/

it looks like the screening was reinstated. i'm having a difficult time determining whether the film was being shown by the university or if it was some student club that wanted to showcase it; reading this thread hasn't cleared that up much. i agree with alfred (as always with these types of issues): the university has no business prohibiting the showing of the film by one of its student groups. if it was just some university-sponsored "movie nights" or something then i see no harm in changing course if enough people complain

Vic Perry otm on mainstream liberals. Personally I don't think there is a political or media left in the USA. There certainly aren't many anti-war movies or tv hosts or politicians.

As for being used as a tool for the right wing this is just business as usual. It is a very common tactic of the right. This could be about someone removing a plastic nativity set and receive the same amount of fury from them. They are actors paid to cry for the camera.

Regardless of what dignity or messaging the protesters won or lost through their actions, what matters is that their message was sent. We know all know that there is a vocal segment of the public that takes offense with warmongering.

i think everyone needs to be much more careful around this 'when you do it it's called X, when i do it it's called Y' bullshit

― Mordy, Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for example, power doesn't flow exclusively from one direction, and punching up doesn't mean there's no power in yr punch

― Mordy, Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:41 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/4/satire-doesnt-need-a-political-litmus-test.html

hey everyone we can all get together and laugh at this right

http://fredrikdeboer.com/2015/03/10/critique-drift/

Well: we have been talking about privilege for 30 years. We’ve been talking about intersectionality for 25. We’re still here in this unjust world.

30 years? that long? no shit.

2000 words on the heroism of eyerolling.