Ken vs. Boris: It's So On

partly the anti-semitism, partly the creepy trot thing, partly the manifestly awful public persona -- these last two i wouldn't mind sooooo much if he wasn't 10 miles up the arse of the city and the developers. i thought his attempts at statesmanship, eg on 7/7, have been absurd, and that one in particular really fucked me off (couldn't say exactly why tbh -- unctiousness? bad faith? everyone in my office -- ordinary working londoners is the phrase -- felt similar. the chavez thing kind of ties into the trot thing -- old-school fondness for authoritarian regimes, however complex the situation is. (ie 'over there', for ken, things are black-and-white. over here, one has to make accommodations...) as a non-driver i'm happy to say i think the flat congestion charge is regressive and favours the wealthy. and the way he called trevor phillips quasi-bnp for disagreeing with him was completely fucked.

bendy buses can eat a dick but im not that bothered.

ok thanks for spelling it out

i didn't realise ken was anti-semitic

i don't know what "the creepy trot thing" is?

also, trevor phillips is a dick

i didn't realise ken was anti-semitic

read about the context of the one incident this claim is based on and you may still not realise

you should look up the trot stuff -- search 'socialist action' -- if only for the lols c. 1990. ken's beef with the evening standard guy and those iranian guys was pretty gross, no? i mean, i didnt get into the embracing-of-al-qaradawi thing; whatever you might say about it, ken did a shitty job of explaining why he was quite so open-armed about the guy.

i'm not sure it's relevant if trevor phillips is a dick. i don't think he is -- he's certainly less of a dick than al-qaradawi -- but that doesn't make it ok to say he's like the bnp. especially when ken uses accusations of racism to defend a provenly corrupt colleague -- sub-ilm tactics at best.

obv the old trot left has its share of openly anti-semitic guys too, like ken's friend gerry healy.

how would/will you vote?

sub-ilm tactics at best.

A bit like accusing someone who isn't an anti-semite of being one?

Ken may well have courted al-qaradawi, and for reasons I admit I'm unclear about, but he has consistently put hisLondoners money into LGB stuff which, for me, counts more.

Also Gerry Healy died 18 years ago. I think I've probably had some dodgy mates over the last 20 years. Back then all kinds of alliances were made because, at the height of Thatcherism, you basically made what deals you could. His friendship with Healy was probably more to do with getting his paper printed than anything particularly ideological.

well that's just it, ken is above all a pragmatist, so you make what deals you can: you can embrace the homophobic guy, and then shove some pork in the direction of the LGBT community. you can employ trotskyist activists in your inner sanctum and build the city up to the clouds. you can be friends with healy -- go to his funeral, claim mi5 had him taken down, long after the printing deal went bad -- and pose as a feminist. a similar kind of me-first ruthlessness has him say trevor phillips will soon be with the BNP. ken has this mystical aura of right-on-ness and gets away with it, but i can't imagine any other pol doing so.

I think this thread, in general, has been guilty of underestimating the visceral dislike a lot of people now have for Ken. It's one reason why Boris is doing so well and why I'm not sure "ah well a lot of people will just vote tactically to keep Boris out" quite stands up.

From what I've seen the worst candidate has to be Paddick, he's like the arrogant robot from some Star Trek spinoff: no personality, an ability to think systematically with no capacity for imaginative and speculative thought, no empathy with mammalian species... that kind of thing. Plus scratch the surface and you know there's a Tory underneath, a Liberal in other words.

you watch star trek spin-offs? geek

Of course, what I meant to say is I imagine he's like the arrogant robot from a Star Trek spinoff

Did anyone see the interview with Paddick in Time Out? He just lost it completely, for no apparent reason.

He's out of this depth

this depth? LOLz

From what I've seen the worst candidate has to be Paddick, he's like the arrogant robot from some Star Trek spinoff: no personality, an ability to think systematically with no capacity for imaginative and speculative thought, no empathy with mammalian species... that kind of thing.

More like this guy amirite?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/04/Rimmer1.jpg/250px-Rimmer1.jpg

Less sympathetic

What's wrong with being a pragmatist? When it comes down to it KL does give money to LGB (and even T's) causes, he does set up equality initiatives, and he does try to do things for those lower down economic scale. So the fuck what if he's 'pretending' and goes home and gets pissed and tells a few fanny jokes? With BJ you're going to get that crap (with added public school racism) and without any of the good stuff and a whole load of bollocks about Routemasters and the good old days on top. ffs London isn't fucking Henly on Thames.

Did anyone see the interview with Paddick in Time Out? He just lost it completely, for no apparent reason.

-- Matt DC, Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:32 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

http://www.timeout.com/london/features/4561/Brian_Paddick-interview.html

holy shit, what an idiot ^^

doctorcroc (21 hours ago) Show Hide
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id rather have routemasters at any cost instead of taxpayers paying for a mega mosque funded and security paid for by the taxpayer

Thing is it's all those Henley on Thames types in the suburbs who are going to get BJ in (Ned xp).

steveallen808909 (5 days ago) Show Hide
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vote ken out if u dont want to pay for the east london mega mosque which will be a security nightmare and a sacluded community

What's wrong with being a pragmatist? When it comes down to it KL does give money to LGB (and even T's) causes, he does set up equality initiatives, and he does try to do things for those lower down economic scale. So the fuck what if he's 'pretending' and goes home and gets pissed and tells a few fanny jokes? With BJ you're going to get that crap (with added public school racism) and without any of the good stuff and a whole load of bollocks about Routemasters and the good old days on top. ffs London isn't fucking Henly on Thames.

-- Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:39 AM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

it matters, being a pragmatist, if you're posing as a man of principle. with the money thing -- i have no idea, it's a bit vague to say he has given money "to lgb causes", it just sounds like pandering. i don't know what "the good stuff" is from livingstone -- bread & circuses stuff, i'm assuming. i have no idea what he does for those low down the economic scale. the cost of living in london (everywhere else too, but...) has risen like a motherfucker in the time he's been in power because the house-price boom (in london especially) has brought about inflation by flooding the city with (homeowners' borrowed) money. the one thing i'll say for ken is at least the price of a bus journey hasn't risen toooo much, but the tube is still astoundingly high-priced. when i lived in london, well under the average wage, i was simply priced out of riding it. so bfd if there are a few public beanos each year.

Thing is it's all those Henley on Thames types in the suburbs who are going to get BJ in (Ned xp).

Pre-fucking-cisely. We can argue the toss for ever about Ken's odd bedfellows and worry about Trot cults from the past, and in the meantime London is going to get one right wing fucker who thinks black people are alright as servants and gay people are the same as dog fuckers. Your choice London.

I really couldn't care less if Livingstone is a hate-filled hypocrite or not. The only important thing is whether, within the narrow remit of the London mayorship, he's made things better or worse. Transport is one of the few things he has any control over (and even then he had the tube ppp contracts imposed on him) - I don't live in London any more but I visit regularly and it seems to me the transport situation is about ten times better than it was ten years ago. It is actually possible to go a few stops on a bus these days without being stuck in traffic for an hour. I guess the congestion charge as a flat tax is unfair, but before it was getting almost impossible to get around central London. For those opposed to the congestion charge, what would you do instead?

the one thing i'll say for ken is at least the price of a bus journey hasn't risen toooo much

90p with an Oyster Card? That's pretty impressive. Plus I think if you're on New Deal or sumthin', it's actually only 45p.

Bariquit, the Dr Morbius of london politics

Tom D OTM, price of buses has fallen.

Buses without an Oyster card are fucking extortionate nowadays.

Fleecing the tourists is a fine old London tradition

even my mum has an oyster card, and she doesn't live or work in london.

Why isn't Phil the Godhead Scouser with the megaphone running for Mayor?

Oyster cards only cost £3 or something these days, don't they? Tourists aren't priced out of getting them.

I agree that the tube is still outrageously priced compared with other major capital cities - but at least it's possible to get a bus these days with a decent chance of getting to wherever you're going on time. The traffic before the congestion charge was pretty unbelievable. I used to get the 137 home and sometimes it would take an hour just to get from Marble Arch to Hyde Park Corner.

Whereas now it can take an hour just to get from Sloane Square to Chelsea Bridge!

big question re where the media's leading over the next two years is: on friday will the story be 'ken pulls it back from the brink' or 'labour demolished countrywide'? i think both of those things will happen, but in terms of creating a narrative, it will be interesting to see where the commentary goes.

Can't wait to see cheap tube fares under Johnson. Or see him dealing with the RMT. I would love to be in that meeting.

xps

fuck a travelcard being nearly £6 off-peak, this is not progress

Bariquit, the Dr Morbius of london politics

and movies

and, uh, just life in general

So, what's the greatest margin Ken can lose the first ballot by and still get in on 2nd-choice votes? He'll surely get 60%+ of Paddick voters and 70%+ of Berry voters, I would think? Enough to overturn a four-point deficit, maybe? I guess Boris will hoover up the BeeEnPee alternates.

I thought Paddick votes broke down more in favour of Johnson?

Mike: you mean Pamela's giving 30% of her vote to someone else?

I agree with what Polly Toynbee says in her column:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/29/london08.boris
It moved me, and I wrote to tell her so, and that I will be happy to vote Labour on Thursday.

The only thing I don't agree with, in her largely spot-on commentary, is the use of the word 'effete' to describe BJ. I thought it had to do with effeminacy, and I actually think BJ is macho and hideously aggressive. Looking in a dictionary, I see that it apparently means 'exhausted, lacking vigour, barren'. I don't think BJ is that either. So I think she chose the wrong word, when she perhaps meant to convey 'upper-class / out of touch' or the like.

Otherwise, I think that it is a tremendous column.

I thought Paddick votes broke down more in favour of Johnson?

Yes, Liberals would prefer a Tory mayor

Can't wait to see cheap tube fares under Johnson. Or see him dealing with the RMT. I would love to be in that meeting.

I would love to be there too. I get a free tube pass soon coz of the silver lining (for me) of the Metronet fuck up.

ok we get it (xp)

I thought Paddick votes broke down more in favour of Johnson?

Oh really? I haven't seen any polls on that. Damn, I'm still living in some kind of SDP past, probably. I suspect the 2nd-choice votes aren't going that differently proportioned to the 1st-choice votes then.

With all these widely-differing polls around, are pollsters working with ludicrously small samples or something? Can't believe it's this volatile so close to election day. Maybe it's the push-pull of Standard smears vs dawning-realisation-it's-Boris.

Stop Boris. Stop London Becoming LOLdon.

He has reinvented himself to suit London's needs. The City, to its own surprise, responds positively to him, giving him much credit for seeing off Frankfurt as a competitor and even trouncing New York.

i was very moved by this, pinefox. i asked keir hardie and he agreed.