Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

man, how old is he? 19? what a way to spend your spring. totally unsympathetic as i am, damn, poor kid.

well someone will buy him reddit gold so he's probably in hog heaven

what does that even do for you

intellectually gifted, cutting wit, hell of a person

ha idk! I just know it's a thing reddit people buy for reddit people. xp

j otm on all this. ~kinda~ wonder how earnest the prof was in class. ime as a humanities prof it's better to treat all undergrad classroom discussions as playacting, so that you get out just ahead of the weird views yourself and so take away oxygen from students who want to play those hard. you usurp their hoped-for surprise that way. it's true that your students might think you're a mixed-up weirdo but so what

I don't think generalizing about profs & classrooms based on REED is a good idea though

also both the student and the prof are African-American which means there are other things going on here too

Good points all around, but leaning toward mordy’s & j’s takes here, especially re (mis)use of “feeling unsafe.”

imo one problem with a lot of seemingly well-intentioned speech-policing on campus (e.g. re triggering) is that a) it doesn’t discourage but actually stimulates attention-seeking trollery, like academic performance art and b) what it does discourage is intellectually productive contentious discussion. E.g. out of the subset of students who genuinely (not trollingly) question or demur on some preponderant politico-ideological campus views, or just question some claim or use of statistical data, the reasonable/ diplomatic/ sensible ones are more likely to stay quiet and avoid the circus. So tough debate is too often run (or derailed) by egocentric drama-addicts. What could be an interesting discussion escalates to ridiculousness.

As a side note, to be a devil’s advocate, the characterization of his other contributions to class may be more tendentious than accurate. E.g. “As soon as we started discussing Aristotle he said how did not believe that people who were drunk could not be held responsible for their actions, and similarly (in his line of logic), that racists could not be blamed for their actions because they had ‘never been taught otherwise’.” Thing is, these are *precisely* some of the problems and cases which Aristotle discusses in the Ethics, to figure out what it is (or what it means) for something to be voluntary/ involuntary, or for someone to be responsible/ not responsible. Whether or not he “believed” these theses, they’re completely on topic, explicitly discussed in Aristotle’s text.

good discussion ITT but this guy shoulda been beaten outta this class he's a total ass

gonna put a big ol uhhhhh on this one

http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/19/male-students-non-pc-views-on-rape-stati

read the very last bit

Ugh hope that's the last we hear of this kid

it does sound to me like the professor lost control of their classroom, or at the least lost control of the messaging about what happened in the classroom.

i mean that said, they have the absolute ability to kick people out if those people are getting in the way of everyone else learning -- one would just hope that the better the teacher, the less that should even be a possibility.

they tell you that. i've never had to kick anyone out (the one time i might have tried was in my very first class, and i didn't quite know how to pull off dressing down a couple of serial class disruptors well enough to induce them to leave). but i've always wondered what exactly you're supposed to do if the student says, no way, i'm not going anywhere. students tend to defer magically to your authority, and if it's an actual class situation, i would suppose there might be some amount of shame and flight-response connected to being called out in front of everyone and asked to leave for their sake. but students are equally well acquainted with completely disregarding the teacher's authority, so who really gives a shit if someone is telling them that by the power vested in them by the university of so-and-so, they're kicking a student out of class?

Based on what's been reported so far, kicking the kid out of the discussion portion of the class seems entirely unjustified. And the suggestion that he was making others "feel unsafe" should only have been made if he was behaving in an actionably threatening manner. Otherwise, it amounts to a soft form of slander, a handy tool for ostracism of the inconvenient.

So, a jerky student maybe voiced some unwelcome/trollish views in an open classroom discussion. If he was dominating the room, then it was the professor's job to moderate and control the discussion. If he continued to behave disruptively and wouldn't respect the professor's authority, then that would have been a good reason, after an appropriate series of disciplinary steps, remove him from the conference. Not because he gave voice to unpopular views, but because he made it difficult for others to productively contribute.

I've had to ask a student to leave in two cases, one for medical reasons, and, yes, one rebellious group (an early morning summer course) suddenly deferred to my authority.

i.e. s.clover otm:

it does sound to me like the professor lost control of their classroom

I want to go to where all you guys went to school it sounds amazing these free open discussion journeys towards the truth. I went to a 4-year college and a 2-year college and both of them were just sitting and listening to the teacher and then taking tests.

Also this is a private school. I can't go into McDonalds and start projecting videos of chickens in cages.

Is $55k not a lot of money to you truth-seekers?

Do I get a discount on my liberal arts tuition if there is a vocal holocaust denier in the class?

I'm sorry if I sound crude here. I am bias because I take great offense at his insistence that the lower class cannot make great art.

^ Several of the things he's accused of saying strike me as blatant devil's advocacy, positions taken for purposes of inquiry & debate. And, as mentioned upthread wr2 Aristotle & moral culpability, likely germane to the texts discussed.

Oh great another performance artist.

Maybe he could change the conversation to aether as a proposed fifth element.

yeah, maybe

Maybe he could change the conversation to aether as a proposed fifth element.

Depends on context: e.g. in a philosophy of science course or any theory course reading e.g. Thomas Kuhn, this might not be amiss.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/19/male-students-non-pc-views-on-rape-stati

goole linked that only a few posts ago

Reason's history on race relations might influence how willing an African-American student is to engage with them in good faith, tbf. Not that this kid doesn't sound like a nightmare on all other fronts.

http://www.jehsmith.com/1/2015/03/the-joke.html

By contrast the body of Wolinski's work, I believe, shines with humanity and sensitivity: virtues that are rooted in his experience as a Jew in France in the '68 era, and for which he was assassinated. Honestly, I read Wolinski and I do not think of the Front National. I think of Gargantua, and the Decameron, and Don Quixote: works that face up to the absurdity, fragility, and grotesquerie of human existence and of social life, rather than trying to screen these out, as authoritarians do. I'm an anti-authoritarian, and in this I take myself to be defending a particular strain of leftist politics. I think by contrast that the dominant strain of leftist politics at present, at least in the anglophone world, is frighteningly authoritarian, and deeply misguided.

the dominant strain of leftist politics at presentthroughout history, at least in the anglophone worldacross the globe, is frighteningly authoritarian, and deeply misguided

fixed that for ya

I have an essay in the current issue of Harper's Magazine on the Charlie Hebdo attacks, on the disgraceful reaction of the so-called left in the anglophone world, and on the importance of satire. It is behind a paywall, unfortunately, and I can't reproduce it here.

gutted about that bro

ngl, Kind of very slightly warming to True for that response to Reason.

On a somewhat related note, I recently talked to one of the people responsible for marketing American Sniper (and other Warner Bros. productions) to French audiences. "That must have been a challenge," I said, "with all the American jingoism and so on." Her reply? "French audiences appreciate films by talented directors that show the world from the perspective of morally compromised characters. They recognize that this is one of the highest aims of the cinematic art, and are mature enough to engage with a film at this level without agreeing with the political views of its maker." Honestly there are moments when I think to myself, "At last, I'm in a country for grown-ups."

first dispatch from the country for grown-ups:

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188412/french-mayor-bans-oscar-nominated-muslim-film

how is french law set up such that a mayor can force a privately owned theater to pull a movie?

(it looks like an isolated and kind of abortive incident.....sorry actually, not sure it's terribly relevant)

Something about smugness of the French cineastes sent me out looking for trouble.....looking forward to that Harper's article, with which I expect to disagree.

fuck this 19 year old creep for thinking he can get away with acting like real life is reddit or 4chan

Adam Bruneau's edit otm, of course, but as leftists, we have reason (and perhaps an obligation) to be especially wary of the authoritarianism that arises from within our own ranks.

some leftists are pro-authoritarianism

https://dov5cor25da49.cloudfront.net/products/383/636x460design_01.jpg

And 19 year-old creeps were playing amateur Socrates in class discussions long before the internet existed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnQ_WDtBhvI

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a leftist that was 100% anarchist in their beliefs. People generally think murder being illegal is a good thing, for instance. But it would be a mistake to infer this means every leftist is pro-authoritarian.

Just wish these guys would pick more important issues. Shutting down guantanamo or enacting banking reform or campaign finance reform. Instead we are talking about 19-year old trolls and essayists that wish they lived in France.

tbf, this thread is specifically dedicated to low-stakes nonsense

It's going to take some serious work to convince me there was some uniform "leftist" response to the CH shootings. It was just a few months ago and I recall plenty of disagreement. The closest thing to a consensus WAS the "always defend free speech, dammit!" response --- those who argued anything else had to tread carefully instead of just making one good principle the sole guide.

No authority figure in the Occupy Wall Street either.

Contenderizer, thanks for reminding me!