Better Call Saul

well, this last episode the only reason he "did the right thing" was to help out his lawyer friend Kim.

You could say that he helped the Kettlemans too, at least their kids, by forcing them to accept the deal... Though of course he benefitted from that too.

Walt, even after remission, never really did.

Was that really case? When the cancer went into remission, I don't think the doctor said that it will inevitably come back and that Walt will inevitably die within a couple of years. It felt more like that, after the remission, the "I have no future" thing was just something Walt kept telling himself so he'd have no reason to quit being Heisenberg. Wasn't there even some episode where Walt confessed that he felt lost, because with the cancer diagnosis he had a clear direction in life, and after the remission that direction was gone?

This show is great, I love the Kettlemans, apparently Albuquerque is full of inept would-be Walt & Skylars (and Jesse Pinkmans). You get the sense that BB Saul initially thought he was dealing with another pair of idiot clowns until things got real.

I'm enjoying the loose yet controlled plotting. It seems to be becoming a tradition to have the first act of each episode dealing with aftermath of the previous one, before moving on to its main storyline.

"The 25th Hour with Maude and Ned Flanders"

Also, could he ever confess to Chuck he changed the family name they share into something Jewish-sounding just for profits?

chuck suggested the name change in the first episode

or at least suggested jimmy not use the family name for his firm, same diff

Something about this latest episode tipped it over into "better than Breaking Bad" territory for me.

I was hesitant to say that but I am leaning that way too

it's pretty different, but in ways that are more appealing to me, I guess? And Bob is just killin it, he's created a character that's much more fun to watch than Walt

I would guess that the pacing is among the more common complaints that anyone complaining about the show might have, but I love it. Everything is given room to breathe as if it were a film from the '70s.

ha yes there is something v 70s-ish about it a la the Friends of Eddie Coyle or Charlie Varrick or something

Yeah, Charlie Varrick is a great point of comparison.

/well, this last episode the only reason he "did the right thing" was to help out his lawyer friend Kim./

You could say that he helped the Kettlemans too, at least their kids, by forcing them to accept the deal... Though of course he benefitted from that too.

/Walt, even after remission, never really did./

Was that really case? When the cancer went into remission, I don't think the doctor said that it will inevitably come back and that Walt will inevitably die within a couple of years. It felt more like that, after the remission, the "I have no future" thing was just something Walt kept telling himself so he'd have no reason to quit being Heisenberg. Wasn't there even some episode where Walt confessed that he felt lost, because with the cancer diagnosis he had a clear direction in life, and after the remission that direction was gone?

Well yeah that was a huge turning point when Walt went into remission. I'm not really talking about the cancer per se just that I never felt that Walt would be alive at the end of the series.

the final scene with jimmy kicking the door - i wasn't entirely sure i followed this. did losing the money from the kettlemans mean he wouldn't be able to afford his new office, or was he upset because his friend was staying with the rival company?

i took that to mean he couldnt afford the new office

kim had already politely declined his offer

Betsy Kettleman is such a great character.

"Don't look back, honey. Always forward. Always in life, look forward."

yeah, that was a great line. she's wonderful.

Something about this latest episode tipped it over into "better than Breaking Bad" territory for me.

eh this is crazytalk

I like this show a lot but it's still just breaking bad minus the leads at this point. 7 episodes in and michael mckean is the closest thing to a memorable character who wasn't in the original show.

pacing feels very different from BB to me

looking at wikipedia - only 1 out of the 7 episodes so far wasn't written by someone who worked on breaking bad

nobody is gonna want to fuck w/ the formula when it works, but if they really wanted to make a real break w/ breaking bad they shoulda put it in another city and not brought back mike as a lead

idg yr criticisms - it can't be better than the first series, because it's about the same people? no one's arguing that the show's not set in the same locale, with the same characters, etc. but it's tone and direction and the kind of stories/conflicts it's focusing on are pretty different. and like I said upthread, I prefer Jimmy as a protagonist to Walt, he's just more interesting/funnier/more nuanced. Walt was pretty one-note - and that was his main virtue! - but BB wasn't really interested in moral ambiguities the way BCS is shaping up to be.

'Walt was pretty one-note - and that was his main virtue! - but BB wasn't really interested in moral ambiguities the way BCS is shaping up to be.'

I don't even know how to answer this

IDGI either, the show is doing something vv different from BB, even if it's using some of the same visual language and is technically set in the same universe. It's primarily going for pathos and humor as opposed to tension (as opposed to the other way around), for starters.

anyway another issue w/ the show is that it kinda boxed itself in w/ the timeline - some stuff is gonna happen, jimmy will become saul, but there's kinda only so much that can happen. it's really hard to imagine this lasting for 5 seasons and not because 'it's not good' but just because we already now where it ends and it's not a particularly exciting place.

if it had been a sequel it would probably be harder to sell it as 'a different show' but the writers would have a lot more room to go wild w/ the character and locations.

It's primarily going for pathos and humor as opposed to tension (as opposed to the other way around), for starters.

yeah but the pathos and humor is exactly the same pathos and humor that the character had when he was on a show called breaking bad

if they really wanted to make a real break w/ breaking bad they shoulda put it in another city and not brought back mike as a lead

yeah: also not brought back Saul, and called it Better Call Saul

big mistake there, I bet they feel embarrassed

No there is def a different level of pathos to saul on this show

He was never shown wrestling w his conscience on BB

re: the timeline, I may eat my words later but I'm willing to bet the series catches us up to a certain point and then leapfrogs to after the events of BB

(I mean, it kinda HAS to at some point, given he flashforward that opens the series, but I'm hoping it does it significantly before the end of its run)

yeah: also not brought back Saul, and called it Better Call Saul

big mistake there, I bet they feel embarrassed

they probably don't feel embarrassed cause they were cool w/ the fact that a show w/ the same writers, producers, actors and characters, set in the same city was gonna end up a lot like breaking bad

while I'm complaining about a show that I actually do like - kim wexler feels like a totally empty character who got sucked into this universe from some later era l&o season or something.

Poorly written female characters v much in the tradition of BB

tbh can't wait for him to ditch his conscience, and by that I mean commit his brother and become a bus stop bench-advertising sleaze

"I'm not Slippin' Jimmy anymore!"

wait until he's into the Saul persona, has the ads, and has a nightmare with "Slippin' Jimmy" written on a billboard

Would love it if the last couple of seasons were just the breaking bad storyline told from jimmy's perspective.

iatee and Otic both very much off the money in this thread

That said kim wexler codes very similarly to Carrie Mathison in Homeland for me right now and I'm having the same disorienting effect as the first time I encountered Saul and had trouble separating him from GOB in Arrested Development as a character. It's not that any of them are the same, just first impressions and certain traits had me thrown at first.

how so? the whole Saul character did a lot of wincing and eye-rolling and hemming/hawing throughout Breaking Bad, and the entire setup of that show was that all of the characters, even the sleazy lawyer, had a conscience and background even if the show didn't spell it out. idk if it translates, but Saul's "jokes" about how in hiding he'd be working at a Cinnabon in Nebraska -- which proves true at the beginning of this series -- is an admission that his life is going to go straight to purgatory due to how he's lived. not hell, because he's schemed and bought his way through life, but he's not worthy of anything better due to some past actions and his BB lifestyle couldn't give him enough money to climb any higher.

I do feel bad for the Kim character so far, really does seem like an aspirational type ripped from a different show, where she might date a down-on-his-luck cop and not the future Saul

Saul and GOB are not at all alike other than being American, tallish, and having receding hairlines

DL is it possible that if two characters look vaguely similar and are american you think they're the same? You just pulled that trick with two blonde women.

you guys all look the same to me.

The actress who plays Kim does have a similar low voice as Claire Danes, but that's about it for their similarities. Also, I don't feel her character is out of place? BCS is decidedly more mundane and less OTT than BB, so a more down-to-earth character with normal aspirations fits, IMO.

Xps there was an interview ages ago with Gilligan or one of the writers that said the show would be set "before, during and after" BB. Tbh I hope they keep that to short flash-forwards, I'm not sure how much of gene I need to see.

Sorta get the impression that Walt & Jesse didn't take up a gigantic amount of Saul's time until the point they decided to go to war with Gus Fring, and then they basically ruined his life? So you would theoretically be able to run this concurrently with Breaking Bad, but I'm not sure how convincing it would be, and it would be virtually impossible to make it stand alone as its own show (as it more or less is up until now).

I don't feel like this is that episodic at present - the three main plot strands (Mike case, drug dealers, Kettelmans) all feel closely interwoven already.

would watch a serious dramatic spin off on how George Oscar became 'GOB'

another great episode; the direction/cinematography is consistently the best on tv.
Though it sorta cheats to get there, this feels like the most successful first season of any show i can think of.
Comparing BCS to BB is a bit of a fool's game for a dozen reasons, most notably that Saul hasn't really had time to prove itself but I'm inclined even at this early stage to say Gilligan has figured out how to achieve consistent excellence.
the major issue is that we know the outcome of all these character's arcs so there's a lot less at stake. gilligan's smart enough to take that into account, I'm looking forward to getting us back to post Breaking Bad life where anything's possible again in s.2

I really like the casual way the show reveals aspects of the backstory. We didn't have any *urgent* need to know how Kim and Jimmy know each other or why Jimmy's relationship with the firm is so poisonous, but finding that stuff out right now is particularly poignant.