White House suits telling us they were "highly trained and organised professionals, not lone angry men"
Yet they didn't have code to get in building, or even a getaway car?
― ..but is he a virtuoso? (Raccoon Tanuki), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:32 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, someone asked me about Muslims in Canada and I had to explain how Quebec has taken a hard line with Muslims compared to the rest of the country.
[off-topic]Actually, yesterday an Asian guy told me he experienced racism in Toronto and asked if that was widespread in Canada and why it was so, as he was being courteous. I just remembered yesterday an Iranian guy also told me "you hear about Canada more now than 20 years ago" and how it was all bad press. Thanks, Harpo![/off-topic]
― ∞, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:38 (nine years ago) link
the first name of one of the cops killed is Ahmed. this is France today: it's not a war of Islam, or the Maghreb, or the Middle East, discretely separated from "the real France". looking forward to this point being missed about a million times in what's coming (i.e. I should not read Le Pen's remarks)
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, January 7, 2015 10:56 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
So far all major french media outlets (of all political spectrums) have took notice of the death of Ahmed, who just recently got french citizenship.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:40 (nine years ago) link
"Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram).
Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.
― gyac, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:48 (nine years ago) link
what's the english word for verlan?
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:51 (nine years ago) link
This is a silly debate, but verlan words are anagrams in a sense?
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:52 (nine years ago) link
yeah this hits very close to home, these folks were not infantile provocateurs but real artists.
Absolutely, though there at least was some degree of trolling/provocation. Didn't the magazine recently/briefly make Mohammad its EIC? Admittedly, provocation is one aspect of satire.
Seems like a lot of European countries/cities are torn between their well-meaning, progressive, open-society instincts and a sort of reactionary nationalism. Like, wasn't it France that banned, or tried to ban, headscarves? Iirc, they did it, or at least couched it, in the name of equality, but the result seemed reactionary and certainly sparked some outrage.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:00 (nine years ago) link
spoonerism maybe?
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:03 (nine years ago) link
I am walking on eggs now and I don't really know where I stand on Charli Hebdo, I never did know actually, but right now I'm certain I can say that the endless provocation wasn't worth it.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:05 (nine years ago) link
what happened is not the magazine's fault
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:07 (nine years ago) link
Has this been linked to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXf1CaU6aWo
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:12 (nine years ago) link
Yes. Notably, there is a tenuous relationship between the magazine and fascistic nationalism. They received some attention for their frequent harassment of Jean-Marie Le Pen.
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:12 (nine years ago) link
i.e. it's impossible to contextualize this horrible situation into familiar themes.
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:14 (nine years ago) link
Verlan is the inverse of L'inverse (lan-ver). Not sure there's an English word equivalent, but a cousin of Cockney slang.
― bit of a singles monster (Eazy), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:18 (nine years ago) link
http://p5.storage.canalblog.com/58/13/177230/59962592.jpg
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:18 (nine years ago) link
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/former-onion-editor-freedom-speech-cannot-be-killed
The Charlie Hebdo gunmen also shot a police officer in the head as he lay dying on the sidewalk. These people are not just enemies of cartoonists or the ideals of the West. They’re enemies of human life. They care for nothing, believe in nothing worth believing in, and therefore their ideology, whatever it may be, is worthless. Moot. Not even worth our consideration for a moment.They cannot kill everyone who disagrees with them. There are not enough bullets in the world for that. The most responsible thing we can do is be aware that the most likely threat to freedom will now come from within. We cannot, should not, police our own thoughts – or the thoughts of our fellow citizens. Because the First Amendment does not just protect our free speech; it protects all expression, including religion.
They cannot kill everyone who disagrees with them. There are not enough bullets in the world for that. The most responsible thing we can do is be aware that the most likely threat to freedom will now come from within. We cannot, should not, police our own thoughts – or the thoughts of our fellow citizens. Because the First Amendment does not just protect our free speech; it protects all expression, including religion.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:20 (nine years ago) link
former onion editor otm
― Mordy, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link
i know what you mean, but a strong national self-identity of secular egalitarianism is critical in France, and defines the approach away from an open society/reactionary nationalism axis.
― Fizzles, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:23 (nine years ago) link
i'm sure everyone knows this already but secularism in France is called Laïcité + has a long history
― Mordy, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:23 (nine years ago) link
― bit of a singles monster (Eazy), Wednesday, January 7, 2015 3:18 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I use verlan for lots of words myself! Anagram and spoonerism both makes sense to me.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:25 (nine years ago) link
― Fizzles, Wednesday, January 7, 2015 3:23 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Indeed, secular egalitarianism is so loosely defined that it has been used by both fascists to discriminate and even generally more open minded people view 'becoming french just like the others' as the ultimate goal for an immigrant, it's assimilation instead of integration, like how well the terrorist spoke french is debate you would only have in France (perhaps I'm wrong here).
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:33 (nine years ago) link
but I think CH was such a weird institution that it's hard to place it in a debate concerning the immigrant french youth.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:36 (nine years ago) link
"was"
I hope the will exists to keep the mag going, frankly. As a fuck you to zealots
But I suppose not
― a drug by the name of WORLD WITHOUT END (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:56 (nine years ago) link
the three shooters have been identified.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link
Unconfirmed reports three suspects have been arrested.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:59 (nine years ago) link
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2015/01/07/le-siege-de-charlie-hebo-vise-par-des-tirs_1175326
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:00 (nine years ago) link
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, January 7, 2015 9:36 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
The culture of satire and mockery in media in France is so ancient, I doubt in France it's perceived as a "weird institution"?
The three supposedly arrested according to Liberation.
― a pleasant little psychedelic detour in the elevator (Amory Blaine), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:01 (nine years ago) link
liberation liveblog say not arrested, just located?
― Vote in the ILM EOY Poll! (seandalai), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:05 (nine years ago) link
Said arrested two minutes ago but has changed.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:06 (nine years ago) link
French media reports have circulated claiming to identify the three shooters as Saïd Kouachi (age 34), Chérif Kouachi (age 32) and Hamyd Mourad (age 18). Saïd and Chérif Kouachi are said to be brothers native born to France, while Mourad’s nationality is unknown. Police have also reportedly conducted raids on two apartments in the efforts to track down the shooters.
Chérif Kouachi, one of the alleged assailants in today’s attack, was sentenced to three years in prison in 2008 for attempting to travel to Iraq and join the insurgency active there at the time. As Bloomberg News reported at the time of his sentencing:
“Kouachi said on the stand that he was inspired by detainee abuse by U.S. troops at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison, though he was relieved he was stopped. The court said Kouachi had wanted to attack Jewish targets in France, but Benyettou had told him that France wasn’t a “land of jihad” but Iraq was.
Kouachi, who alternated between periods of smoking marijuana and attending Benyettou’s classes, said he’s now working in a supermarket and his main interest is rap music.”
Update (4:04PM): Le Point reports that Saïd and Chérif Kouachi had “returned to France from Syria last summer”.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:28 (nine years ago) link
not quite clear on how fixing the place where these men learned how to talk, walk, and eat without dribbling food on the floor is relevant to this story of mass murder
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:33 (nine years ago) link
Guardian is reporting arrest now.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:34 (nine years ago) link
Tons of Europeans are in Syria/Iraq fighting on one side or the other at the moment, and people have been warning that they would be 'radicalized' when they came home for quite some time (also, traumatized and all that) So news that they were warriors in Syria is very very relevant to this story.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:40 (nine years ago) link
yeah the syria angle is one of the scariest parts of this whole, very scary thing.
btw i didn't say by the way that the charlie hebdo folks were not provocateurs (the cover above intimating incest b/t marie le pen and her dad is a case in point!) just that they were hardly /just/ provocateurs. or put another way, they were unusually sophisticated provocateurs. and good artists. that they were assassinated like this is just...
and yeah although i liked juan cole's piece a fair bit the "irony" he identifies is lost on me.... muslims killing other muslims is not an anomaly--it's actually, horrifically quite routine these days.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:42 (nine years ago) link
Channel4News: Ukip's Nigel Farage tells #c4news what happened in Paris is the result of having "a fifth column" living in France and the UK who "hate us".
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:43 (nine years ago) link
muslims have been killing other muslims since the dawn of the religion, it's kind of a thing
xp
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:44 (nine years ago) link
obviously the dog whistle he's employing there is repulsive (since he doubt means to implicate all muslims in europe, not just the radicalized few), but in a sense he's not incorrect.
xpost to tracer
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:44 (nine years ago) link
That makes sense about Syria, I didn't think that through, still there's something unhelpful about establishing "french born" vs not, as like the primary piece of valuable information about these people
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:45 (nine years ago) link
It is to french people, what with Marine Le Pen and the FN and their nationalist rhetoric.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:47 (nine years ago) link
it's not unhelpful if we're looking at how this will push the oncoming debate about integration here. there's a lot of effort put into integrating new arrivals (I know, we're among them!) but it's different for those from here. I'm talking about in schools, where these murderers were educated, how they were educated; because this will be a point of discussion right away (and rightly so)
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:49 (nine years ago) link
Thats been a big big thing here in AU as well - a rising number of mostly young kids (male and female - and not always already muslim either) running away to join the ISCircus. And, more often than not, ending up dead about 15 mins after they land there.
― I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 21:55 (nine years ago) link
In Britain the government is trying to find ways of revoking passports of the impressionable young men who go out there, rendering them stateless. VERY dodgy, against international law etc. - better to take these young adults back home and deal with them maturely, because there will always be impressionable hot-headed young adults with grievances and it is possible to direct that energy to a less toxic place.
― camp event (suzy), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:26 (nine years ago) link
It is very important that they were french born. It is a big change in terrorism in Europe that it is no longer foreign cells, or cells organized from abroad, but perhaps small groups radicalized and choosing to do something on their own. It changes how intelligence should work massively.
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:34 (nine years ago) link
Of course, big reason they are getting radicalized is massive amount of islamophobia going around in Europe.
Arrest operation going down in Reims
― Vote in the ILM EOY Poll! (seandalai), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:54 (nine years ago) link
Is there a good streaming radio station with live / updates? I've tried BBC 4 and World Service but they're just doing bulletins.
― brotherlovesdub, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:57 (nine years ago) link
It is a big change in terrorism in Europe
unless you're taking a long view, it's not really that new. the train bombers in london were uk-born.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:58 (nine years ago) link
and Mohammed Merah was also french born.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 22:59 (nine years ago) link
idk if there are any up-to-date English-language resources. Guardian just walked back the arrest story that the raids in Reims overtook half an hour ago.
― Vote in the ILM EOY Poll! (seandalai), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 23:16 (nine years ago) link
Rolling coverage/pictures of the raids here: https://twitter.com/France3CA
― Vote in the ILM EOY Poll! (seandalai), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 23:25 (nine years ago) link
Beyond the ~offensive~ layer, that Texas cover was just really dumb and didn't make sense.
― circa1916, Sunday, 3 September 2017 00:56 (six years ago) link
Well, there's a reason the vast majority of people in the world, francophones or not, had never heard of this publication before January 2015. It's not exactly Mad Magazine
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 3 September 2017 01:00 (six years ago) link
I don't necessarily disagree with his overall point, but it seems kind of silly for GG to assert that the reaction to this new cartoon has vindicated him, say that "the examples are far too numerous to comprehensively cite", and then quote Piers Morgan, James Woods and the fucking Prison Planet guy rather than anyone quoted in his original article.
― soref, Sunday, 3 September 2017 01:15 (six years ago) link
one of GG's best in a while imo
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, 3 September 2017 04:18 (six years ago) link
that's like saying "this turd didn't float"
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 3 September 2017 04:50 (six years ago) link
Loving that shift in response from PM and others though
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 5 September 2017 00:27 (six years ago) link