the first name of one of the cops killed is Ahmed. this is France today: it's not a war of Islam, or the Maghreb, or the Middle East, discretely separated from "the real France". looking forward to this point being missed about a million times in what's coming (i.e. I should not read Le Pen's remarks)
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 15:56 (nine years ago) link
a little freaky watching the rolling news coverage of this from inside Broadcasting House
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 16:19 (nine years ago) link
sorry Jon, i didn't mean to shortchange your anxiety.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 16:23 (nine years ago) link
kinda surprised it took this long for there to be an Islamic terror attack on French soil tbh (unless I missed something...?)
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 17:02 (nine years ago) link
School shooting last year for starters.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 17:13 (nine years ago) link
yes and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldenberg_restaurant_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Paris_M%C3%A9tro_and_RER_bombings
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 17:31 (nine years ago) link
stray thoughts...
i really worry that this will hand a few upcoming elections to the front national.
i saw a still image of the gunmen executing the wounded cop and almost vomited.
and yes, sadly there have been many terror attacks--incl. numerous anti-semitic attacks--in france over the past few decades.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:00 (nine years ago) link
Not to mention a previous attack and threats against this pub. The Intercept:
In 2011 its offices were firebombed the day after it named Muhammad the putative “editor-in-chief” of its forthcoming issue. At the time, Stephane Charbonnier, one of the cartoonists reportedly killed today, stated his belief that the attack was not the responsibility of French Muslims but of “idiot extremists”.
... A 2013 edition of Al Qaeda’s Inspire magazine had also placed the editors of the publication on a hitlist of media figures and politicians.
One wonders how much of a police/intel presence was kept near the offices after these events, and for how long.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:02 (nine years ago) link
one of the cops killed today was Charbonnier's state-assigned police protector
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:04 (nine years ago) link
ho shit, thx, hadn't seen that.
I'm not sure I was aware Al Qaeda had a magazine. (avoid Impact Factor crack here)
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:07 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, I heard (from a coworker) this morning that assigned police protection was on-site when this attack took place, is that legit?
― a drug by the name of WORLD WITHOUT END (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:07 (nine years ago) link
i know this is terrible to say, but we still don't know who did it, just who everyone suspects is very likely to have done it
― celfie tucker 48 (s.clover), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:09 (nine years ago) link
if i'm not mistaken the teenaged american citizen that the US killed in a drone strike in yemen was one of the editors of the al qaeda magazine... or perhaps it was his father. but yes they have a magazine, and have had for quite some time. (insert joke about it being the in-flight mag-- sorry, gallows humor.)
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:09 (nine years ago) link
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, January 7, 2015 3:56 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkHaven't many Middle East countries been at war with each other for the last 100 years?
I'm not really familiar with French politics/society, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is it surprising that some extreme Islamists'/Muslims' hatred for another maybe less extreme/more progressive Islamist/Muslim is demonstrated regardless of the country they live in or are at? I guess I don't see how extremists' views on how their own people should be or act can simply disappear when they are abroad.
Sorry if I missed your point (genuinely interested).
― ∞, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:15 (nine years ago) link
US Muslims died in the Sept 11 attacks, people took very little note of it.
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:16 (nine years ago) link
the point is that the "mainstream" French society on which this was an attack is multicultural to its core, and includes a lot of muslims. so this wasn't an attack by "muslims" (as outsiders) on "the french" (exclusive of muslims) as the front national is likely to frame it.
i doubt the murderers cared much about the ethnicity of the policeman they killed FWIW.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:17 (nine years ago) link
xpost
still sickening to think these three guys are still running around suburban paris... or wherever they are by now.
That makes sense, amateurist. I overlooked the Front National.
― ∞, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:22 (nine years ago) link
"mainstream" French society on which this was an attack is multicultural to its core
that may be how extremist muslims see it but is that how other French people see it? France has always seemed deeply racist/monocultural to me.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:23 (nine years ago) link
you can't generalize about "French people"
there are people -- many of whom vote for the F.N. -- who see islam as a foreign body attacking French society
and there are people who see French society as fundamentally diverse and multicultural
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:25 (nine years ago) link
the balance is different -- and likely more xenophobic -- than in the USA. but that doesn't mean there's a range of feeling and opinion.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:26 (nine years ago) link
typo
that doesn't mean there ISN'T a range of feeling and opinion
Max made a MAD comparison on Gawker, that isn't correct. South Park doesn't fit either because the artwork is so important. Moreover, it isn't a megaphone for European fascism. If there's an American comparison, it's Fantagraphics. Charb reminded me of Bagge: terrific cartooning and a Reason worldview.
RIP
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:48 (nine years ago) link
yes exactly.
― a drug by the name of WORLD WITHOUT END (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:53 (nine years ago) link
yeah this hits very close to home, these folks were not infantile provocateurs but real artists.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:56 (nine years ago) link
still feel on the verge of vomiting.
Juan Cole:
"Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.
The operatives who carried out this attack exhibit signs of professional training. They spoke unaccented French, and so certainly know that they are playing into the hands of Marine LePen and the Islamophobic French Right wing. They may have been French, but they appear to have been battle hardened. This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering in the face of lively Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram). Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim."
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html
― touch of a love-starved cobra (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 18:59 (nine years ago) link
They spoke unaccented French,
One of the people quoted by the Guardian, who was in the building, said they were speaking in broken French, fwiw
― a drug by the name of WORLD WITHOUT END (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:21 (nine years ago) link
that part is unnecessarily conspiratorial for the larger point about the intended effect of attacks like this, of genuine terrorism in general, i think
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:24 (nine years ago) link
I am personally close to both the Paris' world of journalism and illustration, it has been a dark day for me. My uncle called my mother here in Canada to tell me to get 'the muslims out of Montreal while we still can!', things are about to get real ugly in France I fear.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:28 (nine years ago) link
White House suits telling us they were "highly trained and organised professionals, not lone angry men"
Yet they didn't have code to get in building, or even a getaway car?
― ..but is he a virtuoso? (Raccoon Tanuki), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:32 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, someone asked me about Muslims in Canada and I had to explain how Quebec has taken a hard line with Muslims compared to the rest of the country.
[off-topic]Actually, yesterday an Asian guy told me he experienced racism in Toronto and asked if that was widespread in Canada and why it was so, as he was being courteous. I just remembered yesterday an Iranian guy also told me "you hear about Canada more now than 20 years ago" and how it was all bad press. Thanks, Harpo![/off-topic]
― ∞, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:38 (nine years ago) link
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, January 7, 2015 10:56 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
So far all major french media outlets (of all political spectrums) have took notice of the death of Ahmed, who just recently got french citizenship.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:40 (nine years ago) link
Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram).
Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.
― gyac, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:48 (nine years ago) link
what's the english word for verlan?
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:51 (nine years ago) link
This is a silly debate, but verlan words are anagrams in a sense?
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 19:52 (nine years ago) link
Absolutely, though there at least was some degree of trolling/provocation. Didn't the magazine recently/briefly make Mohammad its EIC? Admittedly, provocation is one aspect of satire.
Seems like a lot of European countries/cities are torn between their well-meaning, progressive, open-society instincts and a sort of reactionary nationalism. Like, wasn't it France that banned, or tried to ban, headscarves? Iirc, they did it, or at least couched it, in the name of equality, but the result seemed reactionary and certainly sparked some outrage.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:00 (nine years ago) link
spoonerism maybe?
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:03 (nine years ago) link
I am walking on eggs now and I don't really know where I stand on Charli Hebdo, I never did know actually, but right now I'm certain I can say that the endless provocation wasn't worth it.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:05 (nine years ago) link
what happened is not the magazine's fault
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:07 (nine years ago) link
Has this been linked to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXf1CaU6aWo
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:12 (nine years ago) link
Yes. Notably, there is a tenuous relationship between the magazine and fascistic nationalism. They received some attention for their frequent harassment of Jean-Marie Le Pen.
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:12 (nine years ago) link
i.e. it's impossible to contextualize this horrible situation into familiar themes.
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:14 (nine years ago) link
Verlan is the inverse of L'inverse (lan-ver). Not sure there's an English word equivalent, but a cousin of Cockney slang.
― bit of a singles monster (Eazy), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:18 (nine years ago) link
http://p5.storage.canalblog.com/58/13/177230/59962592.jpg
― Allen (etaeoe), Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:18 (nine years ago) link
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/former-onion-editor-freedom-speech-cannot-be-killed
The Charlie Hebdo gunmen also shot a police officer in the head as he lay dying on the sidewalk. These people are not just enemies of cartoonists or the ideals of the West. They’re enemies of human life. They care for nothing, believe in nothing worth believing in, and therefore their ideology, whatever it may be, is worthless. Moot. Not even worth our consideration for a moment.They cannot kill everyone who disagrees with them. There are not enough bullets in the world for that. The most responsible thing we can do is be aware that the most likely threat to freedom will now come from within. We cannot, should not, police our own thoughts – or the thoughts of our fellow citizens. Because the First Amendment does not just protect our free speech; it protects all expression, including religion.
They cannot kill everyone who disagrees with them. There are not enough bullets in the world for that. The most responsible thing we can do is be aware that the most likely threat to freedom will now come from within. We cannot, should not, police our own thoughts – or the thoughts of our fellow citizens. Because the First Amendment does not just protect our free speech; it protects all expression, including religion.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:20 (nine years ago) link
former onion editor otm
― Mordy, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:21 (nine years ago) link
i know what you mean, but a strong national self-identity of secular egalitarianism is critical in France, and defines the approach away from an open society/reactionary nationalism axis.
― Fizzles, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:23 (nine years ago) link
i'm sure everyone knows this already but secularism in France is called Laïcité + has a long history
― Mordy, Wednesday, 7 January 2015 20:23 (nine years ago) link
this is john kerry playing wack a mole
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 20:57 (eight years ago) link
we're not going to stop terrorism. remember all the times you made fun of the "war on terror"? the silly part isn't the war part. the silly part is you can't defeat a tactic.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 20:57 (eight years ago) link
i am not above entertaining the idea of making the world a safer place. that is the purpose for society and civilization imo.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 20:58 (eight years ago) link
i made fun of career arms dealer us politicians using that as a sales pitch. i take this stuff seriously tho. i have family in france.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:00 (eight years ago) link
You can get the full text of Lawrence Wright's 9/11 book The Looming Tower here -
https://archive.org/stream/TheLoomingTower/TheLoomingTower_djvu.txt
The early chapters deal with the sources of modern Islamist thought, especially Sayyid Qutb, mentioned already by ogmor.
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:05 (eight years ago) link
The role of Sadaam's former Baathists should not be overlooked
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-the-islamic-state-militants-saddam-husseins/2015/04/04/aa97676c-cc32-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html
His account, and those of others who have lived with or fought against the Islamic State over the past two years, underscore the pervasive role played by members of Iraq’s former Baathist army in an organization more typically associated with flamboyant foreign jihadists and the gruesome videos in which they star.
Even with the influx of thousands of foreign fighters, almost all of the leaders of the Islamic State are former Iraqi officers, including the members of its shadowy military and security committees, and the majority of its emirs and princes, according to Iraqis, Syrians and analysts who study the group.
They have brought to the organization the military expertise and some of the agendas of the former Baathists, as well as the smuggling networks developed to avoid sanctions in the 1990s and which now facilitate the Islamic State’s illicit oil trading....Rather than the Baathists using the jihadists to return to power, it is the jihadists who have exploited the desperation of the disbanded officers, according to a former general who commanded Iraqi troops during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:09 (eight years ago) link
Yeah, one thing I would also say from my limited reading of their propaganda is that ISIS could potentially seem like it had a lot to offer for someone not ostensibly religiously motivated but very nihilistic/cynical/vicious -- adventure, action, rape, etc. So it has occurred to me that not all of its recruits may wholesale buy into the ideology deep down, but may just like the opportunity it purports to afford to basically live in a video game.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:20 (eight years ago) link
As that article noted--Two decades ago, the elaborate and cruel forms of torture perpetrated by Hussein dominated the discourse about Iraq, much as the Islamic State’s harsh punishments do today.
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
Michael Weiss is kind of an idiot but his interviews with ISIS members recently suggest a lot of people joining now are locals who just need $$$
http://uk.businessinsider.com/isis-defector-explains-why-people-continue-joining-group-2015-11?r=US&IR=T
Would be interesting to know how their failure to make any military or strategic headway this year has impacted foreign recruitment.
― On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:37 (eight years ago) link
short book excerpt from politico on the connections between/supercession of IS and AQ
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/isis-jihad-121525#.VdXrKab3ac2
― goole, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:50 (eight years ago) link
Also probably important is the rise of pan-Arabism or Arab Nationalism in the early 20th century, which was not at all a "radical Islamic" movement but did pave the way for the idea of a post-colonial united ME region, a mantle that wahabbists have taken up with a very different spin.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:36 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
others here know more than me; i thought the growth of islamist movements sprang from the failures of pan-arabism to deliver
― goole, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 21:58 (eight years ago) link
Right, I just mean I credit pan-Arabism with a new wider regionalist thinking that islamist movements took up, I think we're saying similar things.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, 18 November 2015 22:06 (eight years ago) link
Started reading Looming Tower thanks to this thread (h/t to Ward for the free link). Wright is such a great storyteller, the kind of writer I find myself trying to sneak in another page of every chance I get -- in the elevator, in the hallway, etc.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Thursday, 19 November 2015 15:10 (eight years ago) link
Looming tower is amazing
― banned on ixlor (Jon not Jon), Thursday, 19 November 2015 16:16 (eight years ago) link
I read Going Clear and Thirteen Days in September (not quite as gripping but the subject matter is drier) and I devour pretty much anything he writes in the NYer.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Thursday, 19 November 2015 16:19 (eight years ago) link
I may try to read everything he's done, although the twins book doesn't sound that interesting to me.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Thursday, 19 November 2015 16:20 (eight years ago) link
Wasn't sure where to put this, so, France beheading attack: Suspect Yassin Salhi kills himself
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 17:14 (eight years ago) link
"Prosecutors regarded Salhi as a militant Islamist, but the delivery driver maintained that he was motivated by a grudge against his employer."
"His head - reportedly bearing Arabic inscriptions - had been hooked on to factory railings, alongside two flags, also with Arabic writing on it."
weird
― Mordy, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 17:19 (eight years ago) link
Also weird that someone I know knows someone who got a phone call from his brother saying, "I'm off work today, one of our driver's just beheaded my boss."
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2015 18:07 (eight years ago) link
Every saud has a killer lining
― darraghmac, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 18:16 (eight years ago) link
dude was that necessary
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 18:18 (eight years ago) link
Not even defensible tbh let alone necessary
― darraghmac, Wednesday, 23 December 2015 18:57 (eight years ago) link
Man shot in Paris on Charlie Hebdo anniversary
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 January 2016 12:06 (eight years ago) link
Shot while trying to enter a police station while yielding a knife, according to reports.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 7 January 2016 12:12 (eight years ago) link
... and wearing a suicide vest... allegedly.
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 January 2016 12:15 (eight years ago) link
... fake suicide belt apparently, guy was no genius obv.
― Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 January 2016 12:42 (eight years ago) link
http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/03/charlie-hebdo-on-brussels/ ^ Interesting analysis of latest controvercial piece
― SurfaceKrystal, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 14:39 (eight years ago) link
https://interc.pt/2wpsGdq
Greenwald OTM
― this iphone speaks many languages (DJP), Saturday, 2 September 2017 21:21 (six years ago) link
If only I could figure out how to use 700 words to say "Piers Morgan and his ilk are mendacious idiots"
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 2 September 2017 23:38 (six years ago) link
He probably is OTM, but I also just feel like I didn't really get the *lack* of nuance to their humor until it targeted a subject I understood better. Like I thought there was more going on in the other covers and I didn't understand the context. Now I doubt it.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Sunday, 3 September 2017 00:25 (six years ago) link
'je suis charlie' being embraced as a slogan by brainless right-wingers is one of the funnier things i've lived thru
― flappy bird, Sunday, 3 September 2017 00:35 (six years ago) link
Beyond the ~offensive~ layer, that Texas cover was just really dumb and didn't make sense.
― circa1916, Sunday, 3 September 2017 00:56 (six years ago) link
Well, there's a reason the vast majority of people in the world, francophones or not, had never heard of this publication before January 2015. It's not exactly Mad Magazine
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 3 September 2017 01:00 (six years ago) link
I don't necessarily disagree with his overall point, but it seems kind of silly for GG to assert that the reaction to this new cartoon has vindicated him, say that "the examples are far too numerous to comprehensively cite", and then quote Piers Morgan, James Woods and the fucking Prison Planet guy rather than anyone quoted in his original article.
― soref, Sunday, 3 September 2017 01:15 (six years ago) link
one of GG's best in a while imo
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, 3 September 2017 04:18 (six years ago) link
that's like saying "this turd didn't float"
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 3 September 2017 04:50 (six years ago) link
Loving that shift in response from PM and others though
― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, 5 September 2017 00:27 (six years ago) link