The Locking of the Avril Thread

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nice try at changing the topic there Momus

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

funny but I sort of agree with Momus on that last point but that's for another time, we need to keep talking about Avril here and I agree with Mandee on her lips.

Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

It's the same subject, though. Asymmetrical warfare. Little troll-terrorists have no power, so they need to use yours. When you run for them they suddenly hunker down and use the force of your anger for their own purposes. Classic. Works every time.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

man you must be one hell of a capitalist if what "works" = what's good

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I would have thought that the moral of my point is clear, squire: don't supply the energy that the little asymmetrical blighters so desperately crave. Your rage is their fuel. C, man?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I just note that Calum starts his own threads---to which people STILL respond to---and never (to my knowledge) goes "trolling" on other threads? I find it very easy to ignore him, which, along with positive reinforcement, is the best way to modify "problem" behavior.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I feel I've formed an uneasy alliance with Calum based on the fact the two of us seem to be the only ones who like Echobelly.

Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Calum has trolled other threads before, but nowadays he seems to limit himself to his own threads, which is nice for him - he's easy to ignore.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

lemme guess: when he trolled on threads that were not his own, panties got twisted and people gave him the attention he sought, right? when a child throws a tantrum, you don't yell at him/her or give him/her what they want, rather you ignore him/her. and it's far easier to ignore words on a computer than a screaming 4 year old.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I just point out that this thread ceased to be interesting when it stopped being about me?

Ta

P.S. No one is ever really anti-censorship. Otherwise we'd have animal pron and kiddie stuff on sale and we don't want that. nor do many of us want bullfighting/ fox hunting etc (oh how we laughed when the Tory government who approved two private members bills to outlaw such "threats" to our society as uncut videotapes of "Driller Killer" complained about a ban on foxhunting being an attack on personal freedom). I'm certainly not anti-censorship. No one is.

C-Man (C-Man), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

30 Million Records

http://www.lally69.blogger.com.br/25.eminem.jpg

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

it does put my mind at ease to know that someone as level-headed and courteous as tombot is formulating the moderation policy though.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:56 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn's "No, look, this is your position, we've been over this" post is breathtakingly good, I think.

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

panties got twisted and people gave him the attention he sought, right?

After a barrage of insults and grandstanding and general obnoxiousness on his part, yes. And personal attacks. VERY personal attacks, and not against me, he didn't really start those until late last year.

May I remind folks that at one point we did have the board set up as best we could so that for a good number of users we wouldn't and didn't have to see his messages? And how so very very enjoyable that silence was. Unfortunately it couldn't be maintained but even though he didn't cotton onto that for months, he DID NOT GO AWAY -- even though he was effectively and thoroughly ignored by the best means possible at the time.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

VERY personal attacks, and not against me, he didn't really start those until late last year.

Well that's easily explained Ned... It wasn't until late last year that you joined the ranks of those people who refused to meet him over a beer.

martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

what is this worse than?

RJG (RJG), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

lemme guess: when he trolled on threads that were not his own, panties got twisted and people gave him the attention he sought, right? when a child throws a tantrum, you don't yell at him/her or give him/her what they want, rather you ignore him/her. and it's far easier to ignore words on a computer than a screaming 4 year old.

I guess you're right. When Calum posts to other threads than his own, it's mostly threads like this which are about him. We're stroking his ego much more than he deserves, especially considering how long this all has been going on.

I'm not going to post anything to any Calum-related debate anymore, perhaps everyone else should try the same.

(x-post)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:02 (twenty-one years ago)

perhaps everyone else should try the same

Until the newer board members join in...and wonder what's going on...and more arguments break out...and those with longer memories say one thing or another and there's more debate...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:04 (twenty-one years ago)

That's a good idea Tuomas, and I'll totally stop mentioning him too...

Right after I finish photoshopping his head onto this picture of a penis.

martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I promise, for my part, never to refer to Milton's 'Paradise Lost' again (at least not books IV-IIX).

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Book III is kinda dismal.

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

However, I might have reason to quote Milton's 'Areopagitica', especially the part which warns the government not to censor books because 'virtue without temptation is no virtue at all'.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

but would these attacks have happened if everyone just ignored him? did anything happen to you because of these attacks? did it ever become more than just words on a computer screen? empty attacks doled out by someone who is nearly universally despised, or at least someone whose opinion is not respected? if the town drunk slanders you, why not just laugh to yourself and/or ignore it?

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

if the town drunk slanders you, why not just laugh to yourself and/or ignore it?

If I may, please refer to John's quite lovely metaphor up above regarding broken windows and wanting to break arms. Which I find far more applicable to this situation than a stack of Milton quotes.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

As a newer board member, I'd like to add that I've read quite a bit of the back story on this over the past week, and while I respect everyone's sensitivity to issues of censorship, etc., I'm still concluding that you all are WORSE than the politicians.

Really, what was there to debate about this person, EVER? I suppose it's near impossible to lock someone out of the site completely (is it?), but locking/deleting/ignoring their obvious threads is a no-brainer. Me thinks some of you have too much time on your hands and no idea of what to do with it....

jsoulja (jsoulja), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

when did he break your window????

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

when did he break your window????

When he did ever offer to repair a broken one?

Really, what was there to debate about this person, EVER?

Ask Momus, he seems to adore the little darling.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry Ned, I don't mean to be picking on you or doing some sort of blaming the victim, but all of Calum's antics seem harmless.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

jsoulja, you're pro-censorship, but you have an art gallery in your e mail address! Does not compute! (You're right about too much time, though: my girlfriend has gone to London and my hard disk recorder is broken and the cable TV has been shut off).

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, no, not pro-censorship at all, actually, but if a guy in the street outside my home is yelling at the top of his lungs at 3am, and not because he has something to say, but solely because he is intent on waking up and annoying the neighborhood, I will be the one approaching him with a brick in hand. Now excuse me, because my work day is done and I am going to see the new Al Jazeera documentary "Control Room", so my anti-censorship ass can get with MORE OF THE WHOLE STORY. Peace out!

jsoulja (jsoulja), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Meanwhile, a bit of long-term perspective -- there are a number of people who have joined the boards in, shall we say, fire and flame. Or had a ready chip on their shoulder, and were defensively obnoxious or offensively obnoxious or more. I know in many cases many have told me or others that they wished they had said something else or done something else or whatever. If I had to name someone in particular, Alex in NYC is the most obvious example -- raging against a lot of us early on for our deficient musical taste and love of pabulum, and more than once getting as good as he gave and more. Years later the amount of good wishes, hopeful thoughts and sheer pleasure in the birth of his daughter is testimony to the fact that there's clearly a good person at heart there, and one who while hardly immune to quick judgments and anger on the board is also not out to ruin the damn place for his own private amusement in pushing buttons. Calum could have changed a long time back by stopping his idiocies himself -- and he did NOT, and has NOT. Where does the blame really lie in the end?

Like Jsoulja says, there is NO debate here about the person. That much is apparent. Do I need to restate my point up above again about what grates?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just imagining how Tim Berners Lee might have designed the web so that people could always control what other people could say. Let's see, first you design the judges, then you make sure that they control all the pathways converging towards them...

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, TURN BACK YOU POXY FULE! You are explaining your point to a WALL. A sometimes witty, slightly smarmy wall, but a wall nevertheless.

martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:32 (twenty-one years ago)

It's fine for you to call me 'a wall'. However, for you to put me behind a wall as a result of your opinion would not be fine. Because others might not consider me a wall. You would, in their eyes, be something of a wall yourself. All in all.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Like I said above, Martin, I KNOW Nick has a heart. Whether Momus is a wall or not is a different matter but NICK HAS A HEART.

That might not be important to him in this discourse. I don't claim Nick to be a close friend or even a friend as such, that would be a ridiculous assertion -- we are acquaintances who have had a few meetings along the way. But even a slight acknowledging from him that we're all not positioning ourselves as objects of figurative rhetoric on the board would be nice. I'm not asking him to change his ways, oddly enough, but it'd be something if he realized that it'd pretty damned strange to expect us all to change to his.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:37 (twenty-one years ago)

What is this 'heart' stuff all about? Honestly, do I have to pass baby photos around at a FAP before I have a right to post? Do I have to be toasted by the elders to the strains of 'For he's a jolly good fellow' to be accepted into this un-gated community? This is over-emotional nonsense. There are no initiation ceremonies here, no rites of passage. You post, and it's either interesting or boring. You can be a random Googler or an old regular, but you're only as relevant as what you're saying right on the white page. Oops nailed it: the antics of the Scotsman in question are completely harmless.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, I never said Momus is heartless... I just meant that it's clear that one of you is arguing apples and the other oranges.

They're not mutually exclusive at all, and the fact that Momus replies to your Do I need to restate my point up above again about what grates? with his comment about Berners Lee designing the web to control what people say just seems to me to be a refusal on his part to admit that he understands what you're talking about. Hence, he's acting like a wall.

(Momus, I do believe you to be an intelligent fellow, so I take for granted that you do hear what Ned's saying. I don't think I'm putting you behind any walls as a result of my opinion.)

martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned is over-invested in this case. If he were a judge he would recuse himself, I think.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

'a judge or prosecutor being removed or voluntarily removing himself/herself from a criminal case in which he/she has a conflict of interest, such as friendship or known enmity to the defendant.'

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Just to point it out again - I'm such a bad person I asked Ned out for a pint with my friends and I at some point and did not evenr recieve a courtesy reply. Fair enough. But then he comes on this board, because - yes - I do think he has too much time on his hands (he's the top poster after all and always seems to be online) and moans and whines about me. Why? If you're so bothered don't do the following:

A) Read my threads
B) Post on them

I don't see why on every thread I put up you come in with some smarmy comment. I find it confusing and really quite sad. Don't you have any girls to speak to?

C-Man (C-Man), Friday, 18 June 2004 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Would you miss him if he were gone, Calum?

Momus (Momus), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:00 (twenty-one years ago)

And I don't necessarily mean with your heart. Would your adrenal glands miss him? Would life be a bit flat?

Momus (Momus), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

You're a musician, though, Momus. You're used to hearing people say unpleasant and personal things, and taking it in your stride. And good on you.

But some people on this board aren't. I don't think that "the antics of the Scotsman in question are completely harmless", because they have in the past, made the board into a place where I didn't want to be, and I really don't think I'm the most thinned-skinned type here, nor that I'm alone in this. Calum has been behaving himself lately, but to view trolling as an act that doesn't lastingly and negatively alter the medium itself is kinda ludicrous.

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I was under the impression, Nick, that ignoring Calum and not engaging with him was the correct procedure here?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:03 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/dchick/hahaa.jpg

Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Goddamn it, I tried.

Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned is over-invested in this case. If he were a judge he would recuse himself, I think.

If he were a judge I do think that would be wise of him.

However I do think you've (perhaps inadvertently) gotten his goat by appearing not to empathize with his feelings (whether or not you agree with his position).

(I do think this is your normal posting/debating style, though, and I'll admit to being frustrated with it myself at times, but I wouldn't suggest that you don't have a right to continue in your preferred manner. There are also plenty of folks here who I find far more frustrating than I do you.)

martin m. (mushrush), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

(Perhaps this whole debate will boil down to ancient hoary repulsive "should we censor those who'd censor us" debestnut, but I kinda hope not. More avril plz).

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

No. Not at all Momus. He plays no part in my life, as I so obviously do in his.

C-Man (C-Man), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Dead Milkmen!!

Gear! (Gear!), Saturday, 19 June 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)


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