C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

its almost like there are lots of problems with this person

she literally said "opened Grace's vagina"

this phrase has a nice biblical ring to it

Lol

http://38.media.tumblr.com/0b31f4064b0c252fe656fa36365d8346/tumblr_needai8Xu31qd6pzuo1_500.png
http://33.media.tumblr.com/8119e753b43dc8a115e582d2e2d85e87/tumblr_needai8Xu31qd6pzuo3_500.png
http://31.media.tumblr.com/8e3408fa0ecf161f19afe66c65baedc4/tumblr_needai8Xu31qd6pzuo2_r1_500.png

she did it with care!

FWiW i am pretty sure i disagree w/ treeship when it comes to art being a justification for itself (apologies if i'm misreading you)

my only real concern is that the assertions about her abuse seem like they need a lot finer critique—about the broader implications for demonizing childhood behavior that, first of all, is being subjectively described from memory, and secondly, an expert has already determined is within range of norms, and third, of course, is the notion that these 'norms' are hard lines rather than constantly shifting, debateable, and often arbitrary

which was, i believe, the point of her sister's tweets

we need to redo this poll btw

Also, I do not have a determined opinion on this passage because I could see ways in which it ... could be problematic. But I am curious what the various sides think about this particular para. from the jezebel piece:

On the newly-founded Those Kinds of Girls tumblr, all sorts of anonymous accounts are coming in about childhood memories that are—like Dunham's—uncomfortable, awkward, funny, and to all parties actually involved, non-abusive. I trust these readings. I always think we should trust what people, and particularly women, say about their life experience. If they say they were harmed, we should believe them; if they, like Grace Dunham, say they were not, what do we gain by pushing victimhood on them when they don't want it?

There is enough real abuse out there. There are enough people who never got that freedom to let their own kid bodies be unburdened. Part of granting people the ability to tell their own sexual narrative is granting them the ability to tell their own sexual narrative, whether it matches your reading or not.

you can refuse to participate in (and actively denounce) the obviously sexist right-wing campaign against her without refusing to acknowledge that some of this shit and her attitude about it is pretty messed up xp

― k3vin k., Tuesday, 4 November 2014 03:36 (18 hours ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAeAp9MzPtk

that makes no sense and is completely fucked up tbh

yeah i think at the very least it's a little blithe. Victims of abuse can be in denial, after all.

i also dont understand how the same people claiming that it wasnt sexual are also claiming that it was sexual and that to criticize it is to attack sexual freedom

well 'sexual narrative' can also mean identifying what is not a part of the sexual narrative ... i dont think that part is a problem per se

ugh, i'm not going to look at that tumblr. i'm super duper guilty of tmi-braindumping but i think in general ppl would do well to just keep these types of childhood transgressions to themselves tbh

TMI brain dumping is like the rhetorical whatever of our, like, age

That tumblr is a bunch of anonymous posts for the specific purpose of defending a celebrity, so I take it with a grain of salt. It even includes defensive response posts to people who describe situations in which they felt violated.

Also almost all of them seem to involve two kids doing something together, not one describing doing something to another.

Also almost all of them seem to involve two kids doing something together, not one describing doing something to another.

― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Tuesday, November 4, 2014 4:31 PM (0 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bc they are not brave artists like Len—KIDDING

Let's leave Len out of this

actual lol

d on't steal her dunshine

I'm thinking LD is not invited to Mia Farrow's for Thanksgiving now

ZONG

She wanted to see what her sister's vagina looked like - even I don't think that story is a "sexual narrative". It's about kids picking up on taboos -not "exploring" or "experimenting". These people are fools. Would we be having this discussion if it was a butthole?

I think they just want to talk about how much they jerked off when they were little - not the same thing as this sad story.

Would we be having this discussion if it was a butthole?

new board description

Another article, someone has some sense:

http://verysmartbrothas.com/the-problem-with-girls-like-lena-dunham/

Wait... who on earth is Lena Dunham?

I know that I M Losted article was written by a feminist identifying woman of color but this passage could have come from the national review:

The extent at which she is nude on her show is less “admirable” or “audacious” as some have suggested previously, and more like a crutch to make us keep watching. Dunham has been pretty successful at courting attention and feigning displeasure when she gets it.

That's because I'm a Republican operative.

Anyway, Dunham addresses the abuse thing:

Check out this article from Detroit Free Press:

Lena Dunham 'sorry' for sex abuse stories in memoir

http://on.freep.com/1qpbTdX

I don't think you're secretly conservative. I just think it's a bad look to criticize women for "courting attention" and denigrating the very idea that she could be using her body in her art for a different purpose than this

Keep coming for the womanists treesh, that's always a good look

you mean her sister's body?

I'll say this much for Dunham, she acknowledges that her writing might disturb or trigger people. This in an Internet culture where people are hostile toward notions like "triggers".

you mean her sister's body?

― example (crüt), Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:41 AM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

...

http://flavorwire.com/486328/lena-dunhams-triggering-art-doesnt-make-her-an-abuser-no-matter-what-some-transphobic-bigot-insists

cause "some transphobic bigot" is really the only person talking about this

all the other people have just been duped by that one dude

the "maybe shes not the most considerate person..."-style defenses of her are lol lol lol

looking fwd to the Dunham apology tweet that scores the hat trick of "trigger," "sensitive," and "privilege."

it would be dope if there was some sort of ground between 'condemning her' or 'defending her' and instead we acknowledged that she's a screen for a bunch of projected concerns

like i have no problem saying she seems like an asshole & kind of always did ... but i'm not clear on why this latest event is some kind of final straw, it illuminates a lot but doesn't strike me as nearly as objectionable as her outwardly racist earlier statements

it would be dope if there was some sort of ground between 'condemning her' or 'defending her' and instead we acknowledged that she's a screen for a bunch of projected concerns

― deej loaf (D-40), Wednesday, November 5, 2014 12:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This usually starts with not making 50 message board posts about her

who said it means we shouldn't discuss it?

like i'm sorry to keep hammering this but again: if we're not willing to have an actual discussion about what this says about a certain strain of thought in parenting bc we're too busy pathologizing lena dunham then we're not even being honest about why we're engaging in this discussion in the 1st place

why are you so obsessed with parenting all of a sudden and, even so, why would lena dunham's memoir be your jumping off point?

im not obsessed with parenting. im countering what i think is a harmful way of looking at the world thru open discussion that often occurs on ilx

my only real concern is that the assertions about her abuse seem like they need a lot finer critique—about the broader implications for demonizing childhood behavior that, first of all, is being subjectively described from memory, and secondly, an expert has already determined is within range of norms, and third, of course, is the notion that these 'norms' are hard lines rather than constantly shifting, debateable, and often arbitrary

― deej loaf (D-40), Tuesday, November 4, 2014 4:06 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink