C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

not that anyone has expressed actual confusion

as a member of the patriarchy, can i just say i'm glad we were able to find several new and exciting ways to tear this young woman down as a result of this book excerpt

oh ps i left out a word

i meant see? shes a #strongwoman and therefore should not be called out for racism or anything else fucked up, to call her out is anti-feminist and right wing!

(timely)

I am curious what roxy and, I guess, da croup think of the jezebel piece. I'm not pro "all confession is good confession" w Lena any more than w alt lit or Tao Lin. But I think jia makes important delineations in that piece

xxxpost oh no ilx has become the national review

actually people, especially woc feminists, have been talking about her fuckedupedness since wayyy (like years) before the NR piece, but ty for more erasure of that

i'm sure the many people discussing how this reminded of them of their own childhood abuse experiences can also fall back into the comforting warmth of the patriarchy

lol'd when I came home yesterday and my wife had just gotten this book from the library - gonna be a fun read!

Kids masturbate at age 7?

― benbbag, Monday, November 3, 2014 5:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no

― Οὖτις, Monday, November 3, 2014 5:53 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes. And younger. Children can orgasm that young too.

i'm glad she acknowledges the problems people have with dunham's work precede these pull-quotes, and i sympathize with people who worry about the tossing around of phrases like "sexual abuser" even if i'm not as concerned about the reputation of people who play glibly with sex abuse language when describing disturbing family anecdotes, and i try to avoid debates over whether a person who commits a heinous act is an -ist or an -er, as they're unwinnable and subjective.

re: the jezebel piece

and poss important to note that the national review and conservative media is ALSO erasing woc activists et al by claiming "liberals aren't outraged!!" etc

so congrats to YALL for being like the national review

xp yes kids absolutely masturbate at age 7 and younger

many xposts

i'm sure the many people discussing how this reminded of them of their own childhood abuse experiences can also fall back into the comforting warmth of the patriarchy

― gyac, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:44 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Who are you even talking about?

literally 100s of people posting about this on the internet, particularly via twitter

am I going to point out AGAIN that she compared her behaviour to that of a sexual predator before anyone else? people are judging her by her own words. I never even clicked on the NR piece, but I read the quotes and that was enough.

yes

lena: i acted like a sexual predator
ppl: yep u did
lena: how dare u

i'm glad she acknowledges the problems people have with dunham's work precede these pull-quotes, and i sympathize with people who worry about the tossing around of phrases like "sexual abuser" even if i'm not as concerned about the reputation of people who play glibly with sex abuse language when describing disturbing family anecdotes, and i try to avoid debates over whether a person who commits a heinous act is an -ist or an -er, as they're unwinnable and subjective.

― da croupier, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:46 PM (51 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But ... This is erasing the significance of actual abuse which should be acted upon by the criminal justice system.

re: 7yo masturbation - kids play w their genitals but it seems p diff't vs what they do post-puberty

xxxp

literally 100s of people posting about this on the internet, particularly via twitter

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:48 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

clearly they're all new republic socks

literally 100s of people posting about this on the internet, particularly via twitter

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:48 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh I thought he meant in this thread

I think that's the worst thing she's done here and that's a fucking idiot for using that terminology and then having the nerve to act all shocked when people call her out on it. I don't think that the things she describes are all that unusual or wrong at all and I think described in different terms they'd seem way more "normal".

But ... This is erasing the significance of actual abuse which should be acted upon by the criminal justice system.

is the ellipsis literally you trying to come up with a new issue

am I going to point out AGAIN that she compared her behaviour to that of a sexual predator before anyone else? people are judging her by her own words. I never even clicked on the NR piece, but I read the quotes and that was enough.

― gyac, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:48 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So? She's totally doing some kind of weird narcissistic slumming in these anecdotes with those comparisons

"re: 7yo masturbation - kids play w their genitals but it seems p diff't vs what they do post-puberty

xxxp

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:49 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink"

I had my first orgasm through masturbation at like 8 so . . . it varies.

I'm not a he either, when do I get my welcome pack from the patriarchy?

And I know someone who got off humping her couch at 5. They do it because it feels good - pretty much the same thing.

But ... This is erasing the significance of actual abuse which should be acted upon by the criminal justice system.

is the ellipsis literally you trying to come up with a new issue

― da croupier, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:50 PM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wtf? No it's me pointing out that your sudden "I don't really like to use names" guilt by implication is irresponsible

I'm not a he either, when do I get my welcome pack from the patriarchy?

― gyac, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:51 PM (40 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Apologies. Is this rhetorical strategy working for you or no

I don't think that the things she describes are all that unusual or wrong at all and I think described in different terms they'd seem way more "normal".

No

I mean ...odd, obviously. Sexually Abusive? No

or outing your sister to your parents against her will

ah, suddenly your entrenched position makes so much more sense.

D-40 my desire to avoid variations on "does committing a racist act make you a racist" debates (which i expressed last night as well) isn't irresponsible.

unless i'm misreading you e, i think you're kinda otm there, in the sense i think maybe the creepiest thing is how she elevates what occurred into some kind of transgressive rite of passage (even the mere act of writing abt it is elevating it, LL otm too), like she's trying to score points off it or something.

the asking your sibling to kiss you for five seconds though .... Not really strange. For kids

I don't think that the things she describes are all that unusual or wrong at all and I think described in different terms they'd seem way more "normal".

you don't think bribing a significantly younger sibling to kiss you for five seconds on the lips is strange? you don't think the way she decribes revelling in telling her sister bad news in the hope she'd run to Lena for comfort is creepy? you didn't raise an eyebrow at her trying to get the kid to lie on her while she watched tv?
― gyac, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:53 PM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not as strange and creepy as you do, no I don't. Kids are fucking weird and go through some very strange developmental stuff. I did a ton of fucked up stuff when I was a little kid and I turned out (relatively) normal. She even said in that passage that she was looking for affection and wanted to feel needed. If I think of those things as the motivation for her actions then I can totally understand them as the actions of someone who for some reason needed to feel loved. I don't think that makes her a sexual predator (despite her essentially calling herself that).

not if they were both 5 xp

D-40 my desire to avoid variations on "does committing a racist act make you a racist" debates (which i expressed last night as well) isn't irresponsible.

― da croupier, Tuesday, November 4, 2014 1:57 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Your comparison of these two issues is 100% intellectually dishonest. They aren't even parallels

if i was on a jury, you'd be right. if i'm debating what to think of a celebrity online, you're wrong

That's cool croupier, it is your right to call kids playing doctor sexual abusers because it's just the Internet

In the real world, I'll continue to think that's stupid

in the real world, kids play doctor with their peers. A 1 and 7 year old aren't peers. A 1 year old can't even speak to say if she's ok with it or not.

her responses to the whole thing, published in TIME.

I am dismayed over the recent interpretation of events described in my book Not That Kind of Girl.

First and foremost, I want to be very clear that I do not condone any kind of abuse under any circumstances.

Childhood sexual abuse is a life-shattering event for so many, and I have been vocal about the rights of survivors. If the situations described in my book have been painful or triggering for people to read, I am sorry, as that was never my intention. I am also aware that the comic use of the term “sexual predator” was insensitive, and I’m sorry for that as well.

As for my sibling, Grace, she is my best friend, and anything I have written about her has been published with her approval.

or maybe just like, her mom should have used that as a teachable moment that you dont pry peoples vaginas open? and the fact that she didnt is really deeply disturbing?

my 4 year olds know this. a 7 year old for damn sure should have been taught this boundary

Again: I think the way this is broken down in the jezebel piece explains the nuances of it accurately. What Lena did isn't good or to be encouraged, like she clearly wasn't learning boundaries. But it also was probably not abuse

That's cool croupier, it is your right to call kids playing doctor sexual abusers because it's just the Internet

now who's being intellectually dishonest - i haven't called her anything other than a gross narcissist

tbqh, the fact that her mother felt it was normal said more about it than anything, what the fuck happened in that house?

i also haven't talked about the pebble thing at all, i find the teenage stuff far more disturbing xpost