C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

Thanks, gyac - wasn't sure which was in the printed version.

but regardless none of her behavior crosses into the threshold of 'adult-like sexual interactions, discussing specific sexual acts or public self stimulation'

and while the age diff is somewhat out of the ordinary i dont entirely think her sister's tweet is wrong either, about pathologizing childhood behavior

i don't get why she included it bc i think she's stuck to this absurd idea of 'total honesty' that doesn't allow for, you know, selective candor ... and it's totally something that i imagine I would, were i a parent who was aware of it, use as an opportunity to explain boundaries. but im not exactly convinced this is a sex crime or something ... its self-revealing but more about the flaws in her artistic process (and in her personal relationships)

would your reaction be the same if that paragraph was written by adam driver

RE:The Correction Note

They mistakenly cited the pebble incident as happening when Lena was 17.

i guess what i'm resisting in the criticisms here is: 1. the obvious misogynist critics who were waiting for any chance to shit on her & hints of impropriety like this provide a really awesome opening, because who doesn't hate a child molester? and 2. i think one should be very careful about jumping to conclusions when it comes to children's 'sexual' behavior considering the extremely fine and arbitrary line between 'normal' and 'abnormal' and 'abusive' / witch hunt potential etc

idk, I'm not really interested about discussing when it is or isn't ok to touch a one year-old child's vagina, or examining exactly why people feel the need to defend this behaviour so strongly.

"defend this behaviour"

"so strongly"

"behaviour"

D-40 otm

dunham has received tons of misogynist criticism and kevin d williamson may well have not bothered to read a memoir by a male writer/director, but as far as the non-rightwing blogosphere goes if a dude wrote about doing this shit to a little sister it seems quite plausible the criticism would be even more vociferous. can't imagine jezebel would look the other way if word got out Josh Radnor was saying this shit.

again, fully acknowledging word might not get out if Josh Radnor put this in a memoir - see Stephen King's It.

It is a novel.

I actually agree with that and if ld was a man i might feel different about this/him but i'm not sure i'd be right

fwiw i like her show, but i'm not really a cult-of-lena person. i'm more making a semantic point about how this story is circulating. per friends of mine who have kids, i don't think a lot of people realize there is a 'normal' range of childhood 'sexual behavior' , no paedo. i'm not exactly on expert on how her circumstance shakes out—for ex., a person's 'honest account' could easily be self-serving even if she thinks it's not—but jumping to conclusions (esp when there's plenty around this to criticize her over) seems premature

If you're not consenting "playing doctor", it isn't cute and normal. How much of this "experimenting" being defended is one-sided? Why does no one acknowledge a child's experience of NOT wanting their privates touched?

Kids masturbate at age 7?
― benbbag, Monday, November 3, 2014 10:49 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not that I'm defending Lena Dunham, but:
Claim One (explicit): Fetuses masturbate. It turns out that in a much-cited 1987 letter published in the Journal of Ultrasound in Medicine called “Sonographic observation of in utero fetal masturbation,” Dr. Israel Meizner reported seeing a fetus behaving “in a fashion resembling masturbation movements” over the course of 15 minutes. “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report of a fetal ‘masturbation’ in utero,” said Meizner. OK. So that’s one case. Anything else? Actually, there is! In 1996 two Italian doctors published a letter (“Ultrasonographic observation of a female fetus’ sexual behavior in utero”) in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology in which they described observing a fetus making “masturbation movements.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/20/the_science_of_masturbating_fetuses/

― ∞, Monday, November 3, 2014 5:57 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is bunk. fetuses can't masturbate any more than they can feel pain. there has to be consciousness or else it's meaningless

One diff. being when a six-year-old boy wants to marry his little sister. Although six-year-olds know they're not supposed to do that.

a 1yo has no concept of their "privates" really

xp

Wait are we arguing about the behavior described in the story or that she told the story at all, at this point?

Nobody is saying this is harmless. It's just that it's hard to hold a 7 yr old culpable for transgressing boundaries they might not understand. Lena may of may not still be confused about what those experiences mean, or in denial about how they affected her sister, but all of that is different than being a child molester which is what the NRO want to brand her as.

Sorry xp to i m losted

this is bunk.

lol @ fetal "masturbation movements" have you ever seen a fetus move before they do all kinds of random shit

Treeship otm

wait I thought I agreed with Treeship and not with Shakey itt what's going on

lol

Kids masturbate at age 7?
― benbbag, Monday, November 3, 2014 10:49 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not that I'm defending Lena Dunham, but:
Claim One (explicit): Fetuses masturbate. It turns out that in a much-cited 1987 letter published in the Journal of Ultrasound in Medicine called “Sonographic observation of in utero fetal masturbation,” Dr. Israel Meizner reported seeing a fetus behaving “in a fashion resembling masturbation movements” over the course of 15 minutes. “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report of a fetal ‘masturbation’ in utero,” said Meizner. OK. So that’s one case. Anything else? Actually, there is! In 1996 two Italian doctors published a letter (“Ultrasonographic observation of a female fetus’ sexual behavior in utero”) in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology in which they described observing a fetus making “masturbation movements.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/20/the_science_of_masturbating_fetuses/

― ∞, Monday, November 3, 2014 5:57 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is bunk. fetuses can't masturbate any more than they can feel pain. there has to be consciousness or else it's meaningless

― k3vin k., Monday, 3 November 2014 23:37 (4 minutes ago) Permalink

You're saying to feel pleasure, one needs to have a certain level of consciousness? If so, how do you explain observing animals that feel pleasure when performing a particular action? (Sexual or not)

It's a tricky subject and one I would not come to a definitive conclusion so simply.

well regardless according to that booklet i linked upthread:

Preschool (0 to 5 yrs.)
Common: Sexual language relating to
differences in body parts, bathroom talk,
pregnancy and birth. Self stimulation
at home and in public. Showing and
looking at private body parts.

This is absolutely the weirdest, ickiest celebrity-related rabbit hole (no pun I swear to God) in recent memory.

this discussion is going weird places and i feel like ive learned a lot bc i wanted to argue on the internet, but about something i really dont need to know at this moment in my life

oh well

lol xp

Woody Allen?

Xp to raymond

Yeah, agreed, Woody Allen was the last one.

I'm not trying to beat up on kids, but some of what adults publish is bunk. Big diff betw. "showing" and "looking". Too often adults are too immature to deal when kids abuse other kids. Kids 3-6 are not to young to remember abuse, tho. What's really bad is that bullying kids don't keep it to themselves, the whole neighborhood, incl. stupid adults, finds out.

At least Dunham writes about it like it IS fucked up. There are lots of stories in memoirs where people think it's amusing. Or at least unhurtful.

Yeah we should protect kids from other kids but also be mindful not to demonize kids who do things that seem abomidable to us. They are kids too. They don't understand the world very well yet

did you guys see the paragraph above where she follows the reveal that she'd masturbate next to her sister in bed by comparing her sister to a hot-water bottle

she may have been seven for the pebble business, but i'm pretty sure a seven year old wasn't reading anne sexton next to a one year old who'd pleaded to sleep with her

we'll all have our perspective on just how gross to find lena dunham, but how can you read that paragraph and begrudge someone finding her gross

there is ... literally nothing wrong with sleeping next to your sibling and reading anne sexton.

and while the age diff is somewhat out of the ordinary i dont entirely think her sister's tweet is wrong either, about pathologizing childhood behavior

this isn't how i read her sister's tweets. she(? idk if grace identifies as female so apologies if this pronoun is wrong) frames it in terms of heteronormativity (and tbh the tweets are complete gibberish); she's clearly rationalizing the behavior of her longtime abuser. without knowing more about their specifics than what's been linked itt, it seems pretty textbook

i mean idk, ive never read anne sexton, is she problematic

that's really cute d-40 did you read the paragraph

deej have you read any of the links in this thread

probably not or i guess he would have said "lol what's wrong with snl reruns amirite"

I'm literally trying to imagine the family dinner-table conversations about this book prior to publication and...can't.

this isn't how i read her sister's tweets. she(? idk if grace identifies as female so apologies if this pronoun is wrong) frames it in terms of heteronormativity (and tbh the tweets are complete gibberish); she's clearly rationalizing the behavior of her longtime abuser. without knowing more about their specifics than what's been linked itt, it seems pretty textbook

― k3vin k., Monday, November 3, 2014 5:59 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how is that 'clearly' what she's doing? this is a true statement. it serves a good function in some cases of abuse! but (what treeship said)

Grace Dunham @simongdunham · 7h 7 hours ago
heteronormativity deems certain behaviours harmful, and others "normal"; the state and media are always invested in maintaining that

Anne Sexton molested her daughter

that's really cute d-40 did you read the paragraph

― da croupier, Monday, November 3, 2014 6:00 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the part about her masturbating next to her sister seems pretty weird. as does their strange manipulative relationship. im not questioning that it's 'weird'

Doing abominable things is NOT "part of being a kid". Why SOME do it, I don't know, but most children do not beat up other kids, punch them or do other horrible things.

The reason we shouldn't overreact to abusive behavior is so that a very young person doesn't think they are doomed to be "bad". They can change their behavior at that age. They shouldn't have to live with guilt if they do change.

How is that different from what I said?