C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

yeah you're right. even the so-called confessional poets were born in the 20s i think.

Anne Sexton (born 1923)
Sylvia Plath (born 1932)
Jack Kerouac (born 1922)
Allen Ginsberg (born 1926)

super confessional style probably is easiest to lay at the feet of the Beat writers (from the 1950s) and confessional poets like Sexton and Plath (also 1950s)

yeah this seems mostly like a tone problem -- the flippancy of it is off putting but i'm not that offended by what she did when she was 7

the stuff about off putting her sister is really weird and she doesn't seem to do much internal criticism of that beyond explaining why it happened (saw her as an "extension")

also lots of people read this book and nobody was talking about this section

maybe the rest is actually more narcissistic, just not as exploitative, so it was overshadowed

OMG, I'm going to vomit. Wait...parents don't explain sexual abuse to their six- or seven-year-old child? Mine did! Then again, I grew up near a famous red light district and was very clear on what sex ABUSE was. That said, I don't necessarily blame the child for abusing, but decent parenting could have prevented this.

I had a sister eight years younger than me, ergo I KNOW. I had to change her diapers.

yeah me too. congrats. different people have different experiences though.

serious, non trolling question: should writers, and memoirists especially, strive to not be narcissistic? if so, why? it seems like that word -- especially its euphemism, "navel gazing" -- is lobbed at any book or art object people don't like or understand.

i understand that as a human it is better -- not just for others, but healthier for oneself -- to be other-centered. but in terms of writing, there's a lot people can discover by examining themselves from lenses other than "how can i be better to others".

parents don't explain sexual abuse to their six- or seven-year-old child?

any decent parent explains to their child that their body is theirs and that nobody else should be touching it pretty much from the time they can talk ime. Dunham has shitty parents.

Her memoir style (and I saw her read from it last month) reminds me a lot of David Sedaris, and there's a similar approach to "awful" family and self behavior.

what did david sedaris do wrong?

serious, non trolling question: should writers, and memoirists especially, strive to not be narcissistic? if so, why? it seems like that word -- especially its euphemism, "navel gazing" -- is lobbed at any book or art object people don't like or understand.

I don't think they necessarily should. But I also think a narcissistic person will by definition fail at not being narcissistic. It's like asking a fool not to be foolish.

I do think, especially considering an adult remembering a past memory, should accompany the controversial memory by her present day views on things, to put things in context.

I played the doctor nurse game when 5 or 6. Thinking back that was probably on the edge of what adult me thinks is tolerable for children to do. Hey ho. But if I'd write the memories I have of that down in a book, I'd write it from my adult perspective and 'value' it in a moral way. I've not read Dunham's book so am not comfortable judging her, not knowing if she did this or not.

serious, non trolling question: should writers, and memoirists especially, strive to not be narcissistic?

I think people should strive to be genuine in their autobiographical writing, and they should strive to not be narcissists irl

i think beyond "not being narcissistic" they should specifically aim not to exploit the experiences of other people for their own gain
that means making sure it's ok if you're going to tell the world about something that involves another person
this is my personal opinion and where i draw the line, but i also think that people who poach other people's experiences for their own benefit are 1) gross and 2) if they do it for the sake of art, they might lack imagination

"LIKE SOME FUCKING BLACK MAGICIAN"

i think beyond "not being narcissistic" they should specifically aim not to exploit the experiences of other people for their own gain

some people's experiences should be exploited for one's own gain, if they fucked you over or something

maybe for some people
i'm not even sure i feel that way myself -- it's a really subjective thing (and i'm admittedly really conservative in this regard, which is why i tend to avoid people like LD irl)

luke o'neil's hot take

http://bullettmedia.com/article/think-lena-dunham-makes-sexual-predator-youre-liar/

seems about right

Yeah

i'm not even sure i feel that way myself -- it's a really subjective thing (and i'm admittedly really conservative in this regard, which is why i tend to avoid people like LD irl)

― cross over the mushroom circle (La Lechera), Monday, November 3, 2014 2:30 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think your views make sense and i also avoid people who i know like to divulge personal information about their friends to other people. this happened to me recently and i was taken aback. i think grace dunham green lighted this book though, and also that in the case of literature it is tough because so many books -- good books -- have been written that cross those kinds of boundaries. not just autobiography, but veiled autobiographical fiction. where it becomes "exploitation" seems hard to determine.

xpost

Really? Seems like some incredibly weak arguments are being made in that piece. "You're a liar because I said so, dummy!" and blaming the backlash entirely on her lack of penis is laughable, to say the least. I get that people are using this to bash someone they already hate, but sometimes a nut is just a nut. Her morbid retelling of stories involving her sister and how manipulative she can be towards her for affection and dependency would raise all of the red flags if this was Woody Allen talking about his childhood.

how is this situation comparable to woody allen's situation at all?

also lena dunham clearly receives scorn and backlash for being a woman all the time. more than any other female celebrity i can think of.

- talk about touching younger sister's vagina
- talk about masturbating in bed with younger sister
- talk about "tricking" younger sister into kissing her/lying on her
- compare above to sexual predator behaviour
- act surprised when people have obvious reaction

It's not and that's not what I was doing. I just mentioned him as an example of a writer/director with a penis who shares a similar aesthetic. Lena get's crapped on all the time, yeah, but that doesn't mean some of the crit isn't valid. She's said and done things that make her sound like an awful human being and it's undeniable she likes to court attention, positive or negative. She's also aware of how critical and unfair society is to women, especially female celebs, so why in the hell would she think it a good idea to include this anecdote, let alone use that phrasing? Claiming this is about her being a woman is red-herring bs.

jesus

regardless of how well or poorly that article is argued, there's a definite schadenfreude to the reactions of longtime LD haters that is a little unbecoming, like they knew all along she was a secret molester or something

She's also aware of how critical and unfair society is to women, especially female celebs, so why in the hell would she think it a good idea to include this anecdote, let alone use that phrasing? Claiming this is about her being a woman is red-herring bs.

― Cousin Slappy, Monday, November 3, 2014 12:22 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Fuck this noise

it's undeniable she likes to court attention

this is even grosser imo

It pretty much comes back to the same problem I always have with her, that she is "self-aware" in a meta/intelligent sort of way but does not actually seem self-aware on an emotional level. I still like her writing and I don't think she is a pedophile. Not about to boycott Girls over this.

I would just like to say that roxy and lex have been otm itt

actually, it's about ethics in book journalism

it's undeniable she likes to court attention

this is even grosser imo

I think that's maybe the most uncontroversial and value-free thing you could say about anyone who opts to be a celebrity.

No it's a hairs-breadth from "she was asking for it by dressing so slutty"

lena dunham published a disturbing story in which she compared her actions to that of a child molester, to which some people responded "actually i think you did molest a child." while you can debate whether that's fair, i don't think people saying "what did you expect?" in this circumstance are like people saying "what did you expect" after an assault

‏@lenadunham
I told a story about being a weird 7 year old. I bet you have some too, old men, that I'd rather not hear. And yes, this is a rage spiral.

jfc

she told more than one story, btw

'I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old</b>. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me. I put on a big show of saying no, taking pleasure in watching her beg and sulk, but eventually I always relented. Her sticky, muscly little body thrashed beside me every night as I read Anne Sexton, watched reruns of SNL, sometimes even as I slipped my hand into my underwear to figure some stuff out.'

As Grace grew, I took to bribing her for her time and affection: one dollar in quarters if I could do her makeup like a 'motorcycle chick.' Three pieces of candy if I could kiss her on the lips for five seconds. Whatever she wanted to watch on TV if she would just 'relax on me.' Basically, anything a sexual predator might to do woo a small suburban girl I was trying. Maybe, I thought, she would be more willing to accept kisses if I wore the face mask my grandmother had for when she did her dialysis. (The answer was no.) What I really wanted, beyond affection, was to feel that she needed me, that she was helpless without her big sister leading her through the world."

"I took perverse pleasure in delivering bad news to her—the death of our grandfather, a fire across the street—hoping that her fear would drive her into my arms, would make her trust me

the irony of that tweet is that she's acknowledging one might be repulsed by stories about being a weird seven year old even if one has their own. "you're as guilty as me, maybe more, but don't tell me cuz ew"

Weird adult was weird kid.

I am actually frightened by people who present similar behavior to Dunham.

ok I was only vaguely familiar with Lena Dunham's "thing" but i get it now. yeesh

She is basically a bully. That was the word I was looking for so long.

Not to be all "shut up and sing," but if Shonda Rimes or Paul Thomas Anderson have wacky stories, they put it into their work and avoid these things.

People criticized her show for lacking POC (it's Brooklyn, a fair argument in my opinion) and she responded by having goddam Glover being a republican asshole/useless character/fuck buddy for 3 episodes, after which Lena's obviously triumph over the situation (he liked guns! what a wacko lol). That should have been the red flag: she won't take no as an answer at al.

i liked her and defended her until this, despite the bullshit white feminism crap
i cant deal w/ the shit about unrepentantly outing her sister

i didnt defend her white feminism bs, just to be clear. defended her against body critics and other stupid sexist crap

can't believe it took the national for people to wake up about this, how many people read this and didn't mind at all?

yo have you ever read stephen king's It

Um, presumably her family, editors, several dozen reviewers... xp

I know ILM loves to hate the national but jeez xxp

first tao lin, now this

where are all the wholesome obnoxiously confessional terrible person on paper millennial artists