Rolling MENA 2014 (Middle East)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/did-phone-call-from-mashaal-expose-deif-to-israeli-strike << woah

a friend thinks meshaal did it on purpose bc deif was getting too popular << theories >>

this is usually the point at which everything becomes so shadowy and complicated that I just say fuck everyone involved how can anyone keep track of all these petty internecine squabbles

don't think it's true. it would have been an idiotic move by Deif (and during war), who's been seeked by Israel for years

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-byhMyvKPAEY/U_ZBB9Zc7kI/AAAAAAAAhJ4/TeQ1Xlx2UZk/s1600/caption.png

More disturbing details and photo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/israel-palestinians-trade-fire-2-killed-in-gaza/2014/08/22/b9e4a064-29c5-11e4-8b10-7db129976abb_story.html

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel’s deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

Hamas media said Friday’s shootings signaled the start of a crackdown, under the rallying cry of “choking the necks of the collaborators.” It was the largest number of suspected informers killed by Hamas in a single day since it seized Gaza by force in 2007.

U.S. Journalist Held by Qaeda Affiliate in Syria Is Freed
By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI 56 minutes ago

Peter Theo Curtis, who was abducted near the Syria-Turkey border in 2012 and held by the Nusra Front, was handed over to a U.N. representative, according to a family representative and the Al Jazeera network.

http://www.albawaba.com//ar/أخبار/بعد-إغتيال-ثلاثة-من-قادتها-حماس-تعتقل-العشرات-من-كوادرها-للتحقيق-معهم-598351

Informed sources from the Gaza Strip say the Izz al-Din al-Qassam, the military wing of the Hamas movement, is waging a campaign of arrests in the ranks of the movement's members involving more than 150 members, for interrogation about security leaks.

The sources said that Hamas in a state of internal confusion after the martyrdom of its three leaders Mohammed Abu Shamala, Raed Al-Attar, and Mohammad Barhoum, at dawn on Thursday, and the attempted assassination of the military commander, Mohammed Deif, who lost his wife and his son and daughter on Tuesday.

The sources indicated that the three leaders of Hamas who were killed at dawn on Thursday in Rafah were killed while meeting in a secret underground tunnel at a depth of 30 meters.

The sources said that the Israeli army used missiles and bunker buster bombs with great skill and were able to cause extensive destruction.

The sources indicated that the meeting of the leaders of Hamas in the southern Gaza Strip was in a tunnel under the house belonging to the Kileb family and that the meeting was scheduled to be attended by 9 Hamas leaders, but the raid was carried out after the arrival of the first three leaders.

ISIS takes the Tabqa air base in Syria

and About 300 miles to the east, a community of 18,000 Shia Turkomans holed up in the town of Amerli, north of Baghdad, said they were running out of food and hope after a two-month siege by Isis, which is trying to starve them to death or force them to convert to the militants' hardline brand of Sunni Islam.

CAIRO — Twice in the last seven days, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates have secretly teamed up to launch airstrikes against Islamist-allied militias battling for control of Tripoli, Libya, four senior American officials said, in a major escalation between the supporters and opponents of political Islam.

The United States, the officials said, was caught by surprise: Egypt and the Emirates, both close allies and military partners, acted without informing Washington or seeking its consent, leaving the Obama administration on the sidelines. Egyptian officials explicitly denied the operation to American diplomats, the officials said.

The strikes are the most high-profile and high-risk salvo unleashed in a struggle for power that has broken out across the region in the aftermath of the Arab Spring revolts, pitting old-line Arab autocrats against Islamists.

if egypt has lost so much confidence in the US that they aren't even coordinating strikes against Islamists in Libya... i mean, it's not so surprising, and it's really unfortunate

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/wallace-shawn-gaza-anger-palestinians-727193?mobile_redirect=false

was really bummed to see Sarah Silverman's name on that ADL thing. I assume Seth Rogen's p much an idiot so I wasn't surprised at him, but I had hoped Sarah would no better than to sign something w Kelsey Grammar's fucking name on it.

i think shawn's interpretation of golda meir's comments are kinda o_O

idk how else it can be interpreted? it's clearly placing the blame for Israel murdering Arab children on the Arabs, it's an explicit elision of moral responsibility.

first of all, children != kids. i believe she was referring to soldiers that were killed during various conflicts between arab nations + israel, such as 1948 - where the arab nations definitely have full moral responsibility for any soldiers israel had to kill in self-defense.

but second of all, it's not elision of moral responsibility at all. for many years the arab cause was dedicated to destroying israel no matter what casualties were inflicted on their side. it is quite literally as she put it in the formulation - there will be peace when they love their children more than they hate israel.

looking at the recent situation in Gaza, it seems apropos as well. if hamas had used the imported concrete to build bomb shelters to protect their children instead of building tunnels going into israel, they would be demonstrating more love for their children than hatred for israel. or the 160 children who supposedly died while building these tunnels. the idea is not that you make us angry therefore we kill your children so you'll have peace when you stop making us angry. it's that they do things that actively hurt their children bc they are insane w/ hatred.

that calculus goes both ways, is the problem

plenty of Israelis evidently insane w hatred

sure, when israel starts using its concrete for bomb shelters instead of tunnels into gaza, there will be peace

also importantly, israelis don't aspire to become martyrs, or hope their kids grow up to martyrs. that's a fundamental ideological distinction that's not easily resolvable.

yeah when you're enemy can't really kill you/hurt you it makes sense that there wouldn't be a martyrdom culture

your

fuck me and my grammar today argh

there wasn't a martyrdom culture in 48 or 67 or 73 either

or during the second intifada, no israelis were blowing themselves up in ramallah

fuck golda meir

feel like yr being a little disingenuous/smart alecky here (why would Israel build tunnels into Gaza they already control the borders, martyrdom culture has grown out of specific sociopolitical conditions and you know what those are where they came from why am I bothering etc)

xp

and fuck this whole line of reasoning, it's idiotic and morally bankrupt

where the arab nations definitely have full moral responsibility for any soldiers israel had to kill in self-defense.

going back to your original point I just don't accept this moral calculus. you kill someone, it doesn't matter what they are doing, that is YOUR choice cf. Gandhi/MLK etc. It's convenient to blame the victim but if you're alive and they are dead and you killed them, you did the killing, it is your burden to bear.

i disagree. when someone is coming to kill you i believe you have a moral obligation to kill them first.

Becoming a martyr, aspiring to basically suicide, is a result of total, complete and utter desperation. If there is no hope, if you see no hope, if you grow up seeing your grandparents and parents in despair and not having any hope for that one thing - to have your own country - to materialize, there will never be a generation aspiring to non-violent actions. Non-violent behavior hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere. They are being brutally suppressed for generations now. I'm not saying it's right that some (!) grow up to be a martyr, but it's certainly not incomprehensible. When you have no hope, no prospect to not being suppressed and occupied.

what if you can hide behind an iron dome

xp

Oppressed where I said suppressed xp

when someone is coming to kill you i believe you have a moral obligation to kill them first.

where does this moral obligation come from

this is reminding me of Ysehsayahou Leibovitz talking about why he isn't a humanist in that clip Hurting posted on the Hey Jews thread

bc they are insane w/ hatred.

Isn't part of this a circular thing where they (Hamas) see Israel's economic blockade of Gaza and Israeli's ongoing settlement development in East Jerusalem and West Bank and convince themselves that a more moderate approach still won't give them a country. And Israel sees Hamas in charge and based on Hamas' founding documents and ongoing behavior decides that Israel can't let up on the blockade, settlement development and responding with disproportionate force to rockets and such

obv any question of where a moral obligation comes from is tricky. we could talk about first principles - the sanctity of life, the obligation to self-preserve, etc. ultimately i think it's that when someone comes to kill you (or say a 3rd party), they have become in that moment liable for the murder they are coming to commit - instead of waiting for them to finish the murder and then charge them, which is a perversion, you can mete out the punishment beforehand. obv this becomes tricky when talking about abstract cause (iirc this principle was used to defend the assassination of rabin) but seems morally consistent to me when it comes to someone coming after you w/ a knife -- esp if you don't have a way to stop them other than killing them first.

xp the fact remains that hamas commits actions that directly lead to their own people dying. not just refraining from building bomb shelters, or inciting responses from israel. they fire missiles that are so inaccurate they often don't even cross the border and actually kill Palestinians in Gaza. that's a kind of hatred that cares more about hurting their enemy than saving their own lives. there is extensive evidence that they fire rockets from congested urban environments and then demand that residents not flee their homes. it's not just an issue of hamas believing that militant action is necessary to lift the blockade - they actively hurt their people bc they hope to hurt Israel.

in that context, yes, if they loved their children more than they hated israel, maybe there wouldn't be peace, but we'd be a lot closer than we are right now

so the victim is judged guilty of intent pre-emptively and then murdered, and the judge is exonerated of any guilt? how convenient. the self-serving nature of this logic is remarkably clear, and it's potential for abuse rather frightening to consider; this is not any kind of morality I would subscribe to (ps I am also against the death penalty)

xxxp

another golda meir quote: "I prefer to stay alive and be criticized than be sympathized."

it's not just an issue of hamas believing that militant action is necessary to lift the blockade - they actively hurt their people bc they hope to hurt Israel.

tbf this point is p indisputable; Hamas is a horrible organization. Israel, however, enables and obliges them.

another golda meir quote: "I prefer to stay alive and be criticized than be sympathized."

sheesh did she ever say anything that wasn't self-servingly moronic? there are more important things than staying alive.

shakey i think your position - that you should allow yourself to be killed rather than kill someone else, even the murderer - is admirable in a sort of limited way. but only when applied to yourself. the consequence of deciding upon that as a universal ethics is similar to gandhi saying that the Jews during the Shoah shouldn't have resisted. it becomes perverse imo.

and i don't know what you're familiarity is w/ jewish ethics but 'saving a life' is like pretty much the fundamental tenant of the religion. there are 3 things acc to the Torah considered so important that you can't do them to save a life - murder an innocent, gilui arayot (sexual immorality), and idol worship. everything else can be transgressed to save a life.

there are 3 things acc to the Torah considered so important that you can't do them to save a life - murder an innocent

huh how's Israel doin on this count do ya think

tbh there are special rules for war even in the torah

seems more like a midrash thing to me but yr better schooled than I am on the subject I'm sure

uh, no? midrash is something totally different. i'm talking about the 5 books of moses text.