Rolling MENA 2014 (Middle East)

there's nothing to see here, etc.

Israel did exactly what Hamas wanted them to do and what Hamas knew they would do

cheers all around for every party being totally predictable

I dont get why Hamas claims responsibility now, and not earlier.

presumably because now it doesn't really matter. If they'd admitted it earlier it would have damaged their positioning themselves as innocent victims of Israeli aggression. Surely this is obvious?

At this point they've won as much of the PR battle with Israel as they could reasonably expect to.

Hi Mordy. Glad you are the one who isn't looking away. Your many remarks about the thousands of Palestinian deaths, IDF using Palestinians as a shield etc ad infinitum were particularly emphatic and balanced.

Outic, you're right.

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/oyy+my+sarcasm+detector+just+got+somting+_70a47a2b99292f505955c7ff56ddd98c.jpg

at the time it seemed to me like the political situation just got away from him [xps: bibi]. kidnapping children is about as inflammatory as it gets and the public (and cabinet in turn) demanded something big. the charge was of course made that the gov't knew the teenagers were murdered quickly ergo the vigils etc were cynical PR management, but i usually guess on the side of sheer chaos when it comes to the drive for war. but i'm not the closest observer of the scene obv

LBI i think we can agree that we have both been very fair minded + balanced in our comments on this thread

Hamas has repeatedly praised the kidnappings, but Arouri, the group’s exiled West Bank leader, is the first member to claim responsibility. Israel has accused Hamas of orchestrating the kidnappings and identified two operatives as the chief suspects. The two men remain on the loose.

uhh is arouri (whoever he is) trying to get these guys killed?

haha p sure IDF is already working hard on that score

or Mossad. whatever.

or let them know that they're already dead?

idk i'm no good at this great game shit

Mordy,. I try to (and at the same time am duly aware I failed a couple of times, for which I am sorry)

I just don't see why you'd instantly snark about 'yeah don't get distracted', 'nothing to see here', simply because I state that, imho, regardless of if it was Hamas or not having done the kidnapping, Israel's response is disproportionate. And that I would dread it if Hamas claiming this for some would be reason to go all 'ohh it was them after all, makes Israel's actions so much better to understand'. Because it doesn't, and it shouldn't. Not when it is this disproportionate.

Anyway, good evening to you all.

tbf Israel didn't start bombing because the teens were kidnapped, they started bombing because rockets were being fired. Hamas provoked the attack. Israel obliged. Everybody wins.

except all the dead people

well yes of course

kidnapping led to crackdown led to rockets led to bombing led to more rockets led to invasion

it is fairly nauseating how both sides - both Israel and Hamas - view Palestinian people on the whole as little more than cannon fodder for their respective political goals

more hamas motorcycle executions: http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-reportedly-executes-three-collaborators/

nm, i was mislead by the photo. it's from 2012. they were just normal executions.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/did-phone-call-from-mashaal-expose-deif-to-israeli-strike << woah

a friend thinks meshaal did it on purpose bc deif was getting too popular << theories >>

this is usually the point at which everything becomes so shadowy and complicated that I just say fuck everyone involved how can anyone keep track of all these petty internecine squabbles

don't think it's true. it would have been an idiotic move by Deif (and during war), who's been seeked by Israel for years

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-byhMyvKPAEY/U_ZBB9Zc7kI/AAAAAAAAhJ4/TeQ1Xlx2UZk/s1600/caption.png

More disturbing details and photo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/israel-palestinians-trade-fire-2-killed-in-gaza/2014/08/22/b9e4a064-29c5-11e4-8b10-7db129976abb_story.html

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel’s deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

Hamas media said Friday’s shootings signaled the start of a crackdown, under the rallying cry of “choking the necks of the collaborators.” It was the largest number of suspected informers killed by Hamas in a single day since it seized Gaza by force in 2007.

U.S. Journalist Held by Qaeda Affiliate in Syria Is Freed
By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI 56 minutes ago

Peter Theo Curtis, who was abducted near the Syria-Turkey border in 2012 and held by the Nusra Front, was handed over to a U.N. representative, according to a family representative and the Al Jazeera network.

http://www.albawaba.com//ar/أخبار/بعد-إغتيال-ثلاثة-من-قادتها-حماس-تعتقل-العشرات-من-كوادرها-للتحقيق-معهم-598351

Informed sources from the Gaza Strip say the Izz al-Din al-Qassam, the military wing of the Hamas movement, is waging a campaign of arrests in the ranks of the movement's members involving more than 150 members, for interrogation about security leaks.

The sources said that Hamas in a state of internal confusion after the martyrdom of its three leaders Mohammed Abu Shamala, Raed Al-Attar, and Mohammad Barhoum, at dawn on Thursday, and the attempted assassination of the military commander, Mohammed Deif, who lost his wife and his son and daughter on Tuesday.

The sources indicated that the three leaders of Hamas who were killed at dawn on Thursday in Rafah were killed while meeting in a secret underground tunnel at a depth of 30 meters.

The sources said that the Israeli army used missiles and bunker buster bombs with great skill and were able to cause extensive destruction.

The sources indicated that the meeting of the leaders of Hamas in the southern Gaza Strip was in a tunnel under the house belonging to the Kileb family and that the meeting was scheduled to be attended by 9 Hamas leaders, but the raid was carried out after the arrival of the first three leaders.

ISIS takes the Tabqa air base in Syria

and About 300 miles to the east, a community of 18,000 Shia Turkomans holed up in the town of Amerli, north of Baghdad, said they were running out of food and hope after a two-month siege by Isis, which is trying to starve them to death or force them to convert to the militants' hardline brand of Sunni Islam.

CAIRO — Twice in the last seven days, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates have secretly teamed up to launch airstrikes against Islamist-allied militias battling for control of Tripoli, Libya, four senior American officials said, in a major escalation between the supporters and opponents of political Islam.

The United States, the officials said, was caught by surprise: Egypt and the Emirates, both close allies and military partners, acted without informing Washington or seeking its consent, leaving the Obama administration on the sidelines. Egyptian officials explicitly denied the operation to American diplomats, the officials said.

The strikes are the most high-profile and high-risk salvo unleashed in a struggle for power that has broken out across the region in the aftermath of the Arab Spring revolts, pitting old-line Arab autocrats against Islamists.

if egypt has lost so much confidence in the US that they aren't even coordinating strikes against Islamists in Libya... i mean, it's not so surprising, and it's really unfortunate

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/wallace-shawn-gaza-anger-palestinians-727193?mobile_redirect=false

was really bummed to see Sarah Silverman's name on that ADL thing. I assume Seth Rogen's p much an idiot so I wasn't surprised at him, but I had hoped Sarah would no better than to sign something w Kelsey Grammar's fucking name on it.

i think shawn's interpretation of golda meir's comments are kinda o_O

idk how else it can be interpreted? it's clearly placing the blame for Israel murdering Arab children on the Arabs, it's an explicit elision of moral responsibility.

first of all, children != kids. i believe she was referring to soldiers that were killed during various conflicts between arab nations + israel, such as 1948 - where the arab nations definitely have full moral responsibility for any soldiers israel had to kill in self-defense.

but second of all, it's not elision of moral responsibility at all. for many years the arab cause was dedicated to destroying israel no matter what casualties were inflicted on their side. it is quite literally as she put it in the formulation - there will be peace when they love their children more than they hate israel.

looking at the recent situation in Gaza, it seems apropos as well. if hamas had used the imported concrete to build bomb shelters to protect their children instead of building tunnels going into israel, they would be demonstrating more love for their children than hatred for israel. or the 160 children who supposedly died while building these tunnels. the idea is not that you make us angry therefore we kill your children so you'll have peace when you stop making us angry. it's that they do things that actively hurt their children bc they are insane w/ hatred.

that calculus goes both ways, is the problem

plenty of Israelis evidently insane w hatred

sure, when israel starts using its concrete for bomb shelters instead of tunnels into gaza, there will be peace

also importantly, israelis don't aspire to become martyrs, or hope their kids grow up to martyrs. that's a fundamental ideological distinction that's not easily resolvable.

yeah when you're enemy can't really kill you/hurt you it makes sense that there wouldn't be a martyrdom culture

your

fuck me and my grammar today argh

there wasn't a martyrdom culture in 48 or 67 or 73 either

or during the second intifada, no israelis were blowing themselves up in ramallah

fuck golda meir

feel like yr being a little disingenuous/smart alecky here (why would Israel build tunnels into Gaza they already control the borders, martyrdom culture has grown out of specific sociopolitical conditions and you know what those are where they came from why am I bothering etc)

xp

and fuck this whole line of reasoning, it's idiotic and morally bankrupt

where the arab nations definitely have full moral responsibility for any soldiers israel had to kill in self-defense.

going back to your original point I just don't accept this moral calculus. you kill someone, it doesn't matter what they are doing, that is YOUR choice cf. Gandhi/MLK etc. It's convenient to blame the victim but if you're alive and they are dead and you killed them, you did the killing, it is your burden to bear.