Rolling MENA 2014 (Middle East)

case closed

even stevens imo

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

15-20 more dead, 90 injured, after the bombing of another UN school.

The Israeli govt spokesman on BBC Radio 4 today came THIS close to saying "shit happens" about the school bombing. It confirmed my feeling that, while the IDF isn't deliberately killing civilians (as some claim), it just doesn't give a shit how many civilians die in the process of battering Hamas. The IDF claims that human-shield casualties are Hamas's fault but if a Hamas gunman infiltrated Israel and used Israeli hostages as human shields there is no way they would be gunned down to get to him. The security forces would take responsibility for their welfare. This just isn't happening in Gaza, which suggests to me that the IDF is doing nothing more than pay lip service to proportionality, so these are war crimes. I can no longer see any reason why they wouldn't be.

they bombed a fucking power plant, how was not directed at the civilian population

I think they give something of a shit about it but not enough. I think you would see even higher casualties if civilians were always being indiscriminately targeted. I don't buy the "Hamas is using human shields" rationale, but it's still a non-barracked militia in dense urban areas.

insane:

But support for the military operation among the Israeli public remained solid. A poll published by Tel Aviv university on Tuesday found 95% of Israeli Jews felt the offensive was justified. Only 4% believed too much force had been used.

I don't know what I'm going to say to my friends w family in Israel when I see them on Sunday

xp I was thinking of people I talk to who say the IDF is deliberately murdering children. Maybe I'm naive to think they're not, I don't know. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. If that opinion poll is accurate I can't even blame the right-wing parties. That level of support far outstrips Palestinian support for Hamas. I'm glad I no longer have family ties to Israel.

George W. Bush approval rating September 21, 2001: 90%

How many people were the US killing on September 21 2001?

us support for invasion of iraq (pre-invasion): 54%
us support for invasion of iraq (post-invasion): 62%

peak us support for invasion of iraq (post-fall of baghdad): 79%

us support for 2003 invasion of iraq (june 2014): 22%

us support for 'taking direct military action in iraq to assist the iraqi govt fighting militants there' (june 2014): 39%

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Those-three-boys-saved-the-nation-369349

nauseating

insane:

But support for the military operation among the Israeli public remained solid. A poll published by Tel Aviv university on Tuesday found 95% of Israeli Jews felt the offensive was justified. Only 4% believed too much force had been used.

I don't know what I'm going to say to my friends w family in Israel when I see them on Sunday

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, July 30, 2014 11:52 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The flame wars right now between various Israeli (left and not), American Jewish (left and not), non-Jewish left, non-Jewish right people in my family and friends and various others I follow on facebook are getting crazy. An Israeli neighborhood friend who we eat with a lot and whose daughter plays with my daughter responded to me "We have to stand 100% with Israel right now" (i.e. I should stop asking questions). People I don't know so well have said worse.

No, I don't think Israel deliberately targets children, although I think there might be a few soldiers somewhere in the IDF hateful enough to do so.

It is worth pointing out in re public support in Israel that Iraq is not even a good comparison -- this is a war on Israel's border, against a group that is firing, however inaccurately, directly into Israel, and in which most people know at least someone who has been called up to fight in this conflict.

I agree the Iraq war is not an apples-to-apples comparison, I just brought it up because opposing the war at the time in the U.S. was met with similar rhetoric/attempts to stifle criticism/raise questions etc. While they are essentially different types of military conflicts, the dynamics of the debate surrounding them bear certain similarities.

we have some co-op friends whose parents are in Israel (I've met the parents, attended seders with them etc.), I haven't seen them in awhile and they e-mailed us yesterday about a playdate and I just know this is gonna come up

It doesn't have to. We were at a birthday BBQ the other night, and a friend, after a couple of beers, said, apropos of nothing and to no one in particular: "I think I can say this around you guys, but I am so ashamed of Israel right now." I just sort of shook my head and said "there's no reason to do this here." And that was that.

xp I don't even know why Josh brought up post-9/11 wars because they were terrible ideas, justified by lies, which led to the US killing a bunch of civilians. If the comparison is meant to imply that, like Americans and Iraq, Israelis will come to view this operation as a disgrace and feel deeply embarrassed about supporting it then OK.

On CNN just now: Israel is running out of ammo, so the US are going to ship them some more. Never forget.

So Israel is pretty much losing this war. Or have they already lost?

how are they losing the war, exactly?

their objective is to terrorize the palestinian population and bomb the shit out of any infrastructure they can. i'd say it's going pretty well for them

nah, that isn't their objective. their objective is to stop hamas, which they won't. hamas managed to shut down ben gurion, kill more than fifty israeli soldiers, and there was enough palestinian deaths to turn it into an international outrage. israel, meanwhile, is running out of ammo, don't know how to handle the tunnels, and domestic response has become so insane that media is fabricating diplomatic transcripts and freaking out because john kerry talks to turkey instead of egypt. my guess is it will be seen as a loss like the lebanese war some years back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoemv7DNsnE&feature=youtu.be

UNWRA spokesperson breaks on telly

I don't even know why Josh brought up post-9/11 wars because they were terrible ideas, justified by lies, which led to the US killing a bunch of civilians. If the comparison is meant to imply that, like Americans and Iraq, Israelis will come to view this operation as a disgrace and feel deeply embarrassed about supporting it then OK.

I figured that would be pretty obvious.

ugh - http://www.jta.org/2014/07/30/news-opinion/politics/senate-backs-israels-goals-in-gaza-conflict#ixzz38z09Up8X

feel like number one priority for Americans against this kind of shit should be undermining/countering AIPAC

how that is done? idk anybody know any Jewish anti-Zionist billionaire donors

Soros funds j street iirc

ah why didn't I think of that

not particularly impressed by their stance at the moment tbh:

http://jstreet.org/blog/post/j-street-statement-on-the-current-crisis_1

Brian Eno weighs in: http://p4k.in/WNxJQc

it's pretty obvious why America's support is so one-sided

so when does Israel declare "victory"? the IDF must have specific strategic goals here but fuck if I can tell what they are

Sad my man Eno has waded into this, esp. since he is best buds with Dawkins, no friend to the Muslims.

Why isn't Eno allowed to share his view on this? Rather, why does that make you 'sad'?

Also: Just as Israel does not equal Jews, Palestine does not equal Muslims. I don't get what you are trying to say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world/middleeast/fighting-political-islam-arab-states-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html

he is best buds with Dawkins

this is p sad tbf

the meta saudis egypt israel v qatar turkey and hamas is some next level shit

otm - plus extra-Iranian dimension.

xpost He's absolutely allowed to say whatever he wants. I've just always thought of Eno, besides being a personal hero of mine, as a very measured, intelligent man. Which to my mind puts him above crying "ethnic cleansing" and comparing Israel to the Klan. Israel comes off pretty shitty without that kind of hyperbole.

the Klan thing is kinda weird cuz he's like "America, why would you support someone like the Klan?" well um WE MADE THE KLAN

Not too keen on Eno's hyperbolic either, but it's not hard to see that it comes from a well meaning heart. It's hard to leave out the rage and anger when facing such blatant injustice, the crimes Israel forces are committing here.

Henry Siegman:

"When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis — and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israel’s U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live. … The question of the morality of Israel’s action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldn’t Israel be doing something [to prevent] this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldn’t they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation."

Not even Mordy - I hope - could still uphold the fairy tale that this is Israel merely defending itself, an "appropriate response". The mass murder and destruction of Gaza, the attacking of UN shelters, the killing of children, Bibi announcing an even heavier ground war today: no one in their right mind could justify these cruelties against humanity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WnEAxa1tFc

I suppose it could be justified better if indeed there was a clear endgame. It doesn't make me comfortable to wait and see which tack Israel takes once the tunnels are destroyed to its satisfaction. Because the odds that this is over when its done are nil.

If there's any weak consolation it's that thus far the West Bank has resisted being drawn into this, for the most part.

Xpost it says a lot about me that my first instinct was to respond by posting Pump Up the Volume.

I support Israel and though I'd like to see more courageous action from Bibi (such as deposing Hamas and facilitating new elections with the help of PA) any complaints about the current campaign I have are more strategic than moral. I blame every Palestinian death on Hamas. I blame Israel for not empowering the PA, or finding a way to reward the West Bank for embracing non-violence (compared to Hamas), but I don't blame them for fighting this war.

And if you feel it necessary to say that this means I support baby-killing, just know that I have heard that charge already this week.