Rolling MENA 2014 (Middle East)

anyway my point is that the cycle of revenge is endless (weird that Israel hasn't noticed this in the last 60 years). the only way to stop it is for one side to refuse to engage in it anymore and accept whatever consequences come of that as being preferable to an eternal cycle of violence. would be nice if either side could take this step.

xp

I'm goin off the quote in the WaPo article from this guy Mordy:

The family has sometimes operated on the fringes of Hamas, wrote Eldar, who suspects the timing of the kidnappings is too convenient. “Each time Hamas has reached an understanding with Israel about a cease-fire … at least one member of the family has been responsible for planning or initiating a suicide attack, and any understanding with Israel, achieved after considerable effort, were suddenly laid waste,” Eldar said.

but since when did 'palestinian resistance' ever actually help a human being?

probably about as often as "precision bombing"

should note I'm referring to a different WaPo article than the one curmodgeon linked:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/01/the-men-israel-blames-for-the-deaths-of-israeli-teenagers-and-their-violent-family-history/

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/qawasmeh-clan-hebron-hamas-leadership-mahmoud-abbas.html#

this would appear to support Hamas' contention that this was not a gov't-sponsored operation but parsing how much of Hamas' operations are top-down activities that are then hidden by misdirection vs. how little they actually control is p difficult. Israel obviously erring on the side of Hamas' being in control, ergo more bombing, which accomplishes... what exactly? More bad blood between the two parties? yeah that's what we need.

islamic jihad has been firing rockets from gaza for weeks (and israel returning fire on launch sites). eldar is being disingenuous by suggesting that this is primarily about the cease fire. much more likely they wanted to undermine the coalition government.

maybe they were frightened that abbas stood a legitimate chance of moderating hamas and they wanted to force hamas back into public radicalism. idk, this is very back of envelope guessing.

I think he's conflating the two; they aren't entirely unrelated

xp

Oh good a revenge killing. Problem solved!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/world/asia/iraq-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-sermon-video.html

Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip Monday have killed nine Hamas militants. The Israeli military reported the strikes targeted "terror sites and concealed rocket launchers" across Gaza after about 25 rockets were fired into Israel on Sunday. According to the Israeli military, rockets launched from Gaza injured an Israeli soldier on Monday. The increase in attacks has come amid rising tensions over the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers and a Palestinian teen. On Sunday, Israeli authorities arrested six Israelis over the suspected revenge killing of Muhammad Abu Khdeir, who is believed to have been burned to death after he was kidnapped. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the Palestinian teenager's father Monday expressing outrage over the "reprehensible" murder, vowing to deal with the suspects "to the fullest extent of the law."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4539651,00.html

A report by the BBC shows that Palestinian supporters are using fake images to illustrate the suffering in Gaza.

"Graphic images are being shared on social media to show how people have been affected by the renewed tensions between Israel and the Palestinians," the BBC reported.

"Over the past week the hashtag #GazaUnderAttack has been used hundreds of thousands of times, often to distribute pictures claiming to show the effects of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza."

The hashtag has received 375,000 retweets in eight days.

"A #BBCtrending investigation has found that many of these images are not from the latest conflict and not even from Gaza. Some date as far back as 2009 and others are from conflicts in Syria and Iraq," the report said.

fyi LBI

here's the original BBC link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28198163

it's just a little bombing, it's still good

it's just a little photo misattribution for propaganda purposes on social media. no biggie, all in service of the cause.

omg there is misinformation on the internet

seems like a minor concern next to actual lives lost but ymmv

lol you're so disingenuous it's gross

considering that the entire scope of the hamas battleplan is to incite israel to damage gaza sufficiently so they can parade photos in front of the arab world and hopefully earn support + marginalize israel further, i think the use of fake photos is entirely relevant to the entire thing. on hamas' side this upcoming conflagration is almost entirely about producing more photos to post on twitter. it's certainly not about dealing an actual military defeat to israel.

ok

what am I being disingenuous about?

hamas battleplan is to incite israel to damage gaza sufficiently so they can parade photos in front of the arab world

Israel only too happy to oblige unfortunately.

that it's somehow excusable or unimportant that fake photos are being used to incite outrage (nb LBI in this very thread)

yes, well, basically the entire southern israel is shut down at the moment bc of constant sirens + rockets. parents on my fb haven't sent their kids to school in days and many are moving up north to be with family. but hey, israel should just ignore hamas.

when has Hamas ever been capable of dealing a military defeat to Israel (and when did I say this was their goal?) Their whole m.o. is to garner Arab pressure against Israel, that's p much the only resource they have.

xp

well the way they do that is by scoring propaganda victories through the use of misattributed photos so i think it's very relevant to the conflict. if you agree w/ that i don't know why you're being so dismissive.

that it's somehow excusable or unimportant that fake photos are being used to incite outrage

given the wealth of shit Israel actually has fomented on Palestinians it does seem p unimportant to me, a minor detail.

parents on my fb haven't sent their kids to school in days and many are moving up north to be with family

I wonder where the Palestinian parents get to send their kids/families

xp

all this boils down to imo is you are cool with bombing people. I am not. sorry if that appears disingenuous.

got it. bc their lives are shit israel shouldn't bother responding to attacks on its territory bc it will make their lives more shit.

yes, i am cool with responding to rocket fire w/ the IDF. i assume that if your home was being targeted by rockets you'd feel the same way, but thank god you don't have to worry about it.

you yourself are arguing that its against Israel's interests to retaliate militariliy so I don't really get what you think they are accomplishing.

i think that a missile was just shot at tel aviv and if you can't prevent missiles being shot at your biggest city w/ a military response you aren't really a country anymore.

but let's hear your idea. does it involve ignoring hamas and hoping the rockets stop eventually?

do you want them to bomb *just enough* to make Hamas think it isn't worth it to try and make them bomb some more idgi

but let's hear your idea. does it involve ignoring hamas and hoping the rockets stop eventually?

grant some defensible concession that will court world opinion, like, say actually dismantling all the illegal settlements (or even just say they will) and then it will look like Hamas is the unreasonable agressor voila their twitter campaign is fucked

i think they should target hamas/islamic jihad operatives + rocket stockpiles to thin a) the ppl shooting the rockets and b) the rockets being shot. do it until hamas asks for a cease fire. between the last operation, being jettisoned by iran, and the muslim brotherhood collapsing in egypt, hamas is incredibly weak as is. weakening them further will only help abbas and will hopefully stop the rockets dropping all over israel so ppl can get back to their lives.

remember the last time they dismantled settlements and withdrew? what happened then? oh yeah, hamas moved in and started firing rockets. def a good idea to try the same thing again to stop these rockets.

I remember there was looting/rioting and Palestinians burned some synagogues that were left behind (yr talking about 2005 right?)

xxp

anyway I just pulled that out of a hat - they could say they are stopping new settlements, or something else, whatever would most undercut Hamas' position as the morally righteous underdog (which btw I do not actually believe they are in case that isn't clear)

yes, but i'm talking about the fact that hamas immediately took control of gaza and started bombing israel - which is exactly what is going on today. the last withdrawal from settlements led directly to the rockets happening today. offering to withdraw from more settlements to stop these rockets seems insane to me. it'll just lead to new rockets, this time much much closer to tel aviv and jerusalem!

like i understand not liking the occupation. i don't like it. it's distasteful/immoral to be in control of ppl who don't have a vote. that's why i think israel should annex the whole bloody thing and give citizenship to the palestinians living there. but just leaving unilaterally, in light of 2005, is not a feasible option.

Mordy, I know there's false images about. There's also real ones: http://www.nrc.nl/inbeeld/2014/07/08/gaza-stad-is-getroffen-door-een-zwaar-israelisch-luchtoffensief/

No need to inform me about falsely attributed images. There're enough that are from today. Israel going all out in bloody vengeance.

you call it vengeance, i call it an appropriate response to 80 rockets

if you can't prevent missiles being shot at your biggest city w/ a military response you aren't really a country anymore.

I guess there are a bunch of countries that aren't actually countries by this estimation. sucks to be you, Costa Rica!

it'll just lead to new rockets, this time much much closer to tel aviv and jerusalem!

I don't really get how current policy of antagonizing Hamas and lending moral credence to their claims of unjust oppression really reduces the number of rockets either. The picture you paint implies that Hamas will bomb Israel *no matter what Israel does* so Israel might as well bomb back. But imo all this does is increase the amount of misery going around, it doesn't actually lead to any conclusive resolution, it just fuels the fire. Do you think if Israel's "targeted bombing" (sad megalol at this general concept too, btw) at "jihad operatives + rocket stockpiles" (which in practice inevitably leads to innocent deaths/collateral damage) is targeted enough that the Arab world - hell, the rest of the world including the twitterverse - will all say, "oh, gee this is perfectly reasonable, good on you Israel!" No, of course not. Hamas will win the "hearts and minds" battle if Israel bombs anything. Israel takes the moral high ground, not only will fewer people die, they will have stronger international support and a better position from which to negotiate a permanent solution.

xp

i think protecting your ppl comes first, before looking good in front the international community.

i also suspect that it doesn't really matter what israel does, the arab world will never be won over. they might ultimately negotiate / make peace but it won't be because israel moved them by not responding to rocket fire.

It's in in appropriately huge and devastating "response". Bombing innocent people who cannot flee anywhere because they are trapped. 40.000 reservists called up.

But by all means, keep calling a nation a 1000 times more forceful attacking Palestine "an appropriate response"... It's against international laws, but we all know how Israel feels about that.

If these false justifications makes you feel this is 'right', make you sleep well at night, by all means.

you legit argue like a child, LBI.

all i can say is thank god israel is 1000 times more powerful than the palestinians bc in 67 and 73 they weren't 1000 times more powerful than the arab nations attacking them and it was miraculous that they survived. now they can guarantee their own survival.

and what a glorious, trouble-free, amoral survival it is

The bully never looks good

"oh did you hit me? I STAB YOU"